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2005/03/08, 07:42 PM
well casein doesn't block it. It is a form of protein found in milk and it slows down the ingestion of protein so its a slow release. It Gels in the stomach as mmaibohm.
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2005/03/08, 07:55 PM
justine we know that casein is a slow release protein. that as I said before to carivan is not the question. the question is does the action of casein block or slow down wheys absorbtion. I checked the two references given by bb1fit (credit to google scholar) and both documents were on an unrelated topic.
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2005/03/08, 07:57 PM
It only makes sense to have all metabolic pathways geared toward muscle takeup as quickly as possible post workout. Adding casein will at the very least blunt some of that. Say for instance your pwo shake consists of 46 gr. of protein. If say 1/2 of that is casein, you will only get 23 gr. takeup immediately(or close to it anyway), even if casein does not block whey in any way. This is because casein actually clots/gels in the stomach upon digestion, thus releasing very small amounts of amino acids into the blood stream. Why would you want to delay this rapid upsurge of whey at this time? Use your casein the rest of day and night, but it is just not optimal pwo.
As far as the question newboy asks as to why whey is in milk, simple answer...where do you think whey is derived from? Whey proteins comprise one of the two major protein groups of bovine milk, the other group being the caseins. Caseins account for about 80% of the total protein in bovine milk, while whey proteins account for the remaining approximately 20%. Whey is derived as a natural byproduct of the cheese-making process.
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Quoting from ironmonga:
I think its been established now that way and water Post WO is the way to go as you have pointed out before, but its nice to chew these things over now and then. but I think justin thought we was dissing you or somthing.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/08, 10:01 PM
Im not disagreeing with you bb1fit, but casein protein does have its place. for example, before going to sleep... when you sleep (and as athletes you should all be sleeping 7-10 hours), your body is essentially fasting. this causes an anti-catabolic state. A glass of milk for some slow absorbing protein would help to reduce this.
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Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
steve
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2005/03/08, 10:09 PM
Wow, wrestler125, if I didn't know any better, I would think that is what I have been saying all along! :)
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/09, 04:20 AM
wrestler125...Quote,
"when you sleep (and as athletes you should all be sleeping 7-10 hours), your body is essentially fasting. this causes an anti-catabolic state."??????
I would try to understand what your reading before you post it. Look up "anabolic" and "catabolic". I hate to pick you up on this but a lot of people get there info from here so We should all do our best to get it right and be prepaird to be corrected if not. "Anti catabolic" is a void phrase its ANABOLIC, but even so, you have the two arse about face.
The Word I think you wanted was "CATABOLIC".
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2005/03/09, 04:58 AM
bb1 I checked out the refs you gave also and came up with the same as newboy. ????????
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2005/03/09, 05:14 AM
Maybe this is what you are looking for Cbas......erm, I mean ironmonga.
Gastric emptying, gastric secretion and enterogastrone response after administration of milk proteins or their peptide hydrolysates in humans.
European Journal of Nutrition. 43(3):127-39, 2004 Jun.
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2005/03/09, 07:12 AM
princesslodgey. thanks but we all know that fat slows digestion, thats not the debate. any how whats this about "Maybe this is what you are looking for Cbas......erm, I mean ironmonga" ?? Where are you coming from??????.
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2005/03/09, 07:16 AM
I'm not dissputing the casein theory. and never have. I was just stating that I tried to follow a ref and is was not there. And I aint no cbas what ever that is.
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2005/03/09, 07:52 AM
the study is nothing to do with fat slowing down absorption, it's about casein slowing down absorption. Which you would know if you'd read it/ understood it. Cbas.
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2005/03/09, 08:58 AM
Ok so give a direct link or submit the text then. Whats with all this cbas shit? if you have somthing to say, say it dont, just post snide comments and then sign off. Whats your problem with me? and who or what is cbas?.
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2005/03/09, 09:05 AM
I did a fit budy search and found lots of refernces to a cbas. Seems he was an ex member couldn't find a post from him for some reason. but seems he was very unpopular. Are you thinking that that is me???? You are wrong and why would you think that.
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2005/03/09, 10:14 AM
So you (and also hi_there123) joining FT on the same day that Cbas's latest persona, TheTerminator, got banned is just a coincidence? Sorry, my mistake.
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2005/03/09, 10:52 AM
The source for my information is the article "Protein Power 8 top sources of protein, why you need them and how to use them, by Jose Antonio, Ph.D, C.S. C.S. (Muscle Media magazine, Nov/Dec 2003) If you want more specific scientific info on the different types of protein, do an internet search and I am sure you will find the technical info you require.
Antonio starts out by saying that vegetable sources of protein are generally inferior to animal sources. "Plant proteins are low in certain amino acids and are poorly digested...soy protein is one exception."
Whey Protein - whey protein is the second most abundant protein derived from milk ( the most abundant is casein). Whey protein is found mainly in Ready-To-Drink shakes, meal-replacement powders, and protein powders.
Why Whey? Whey contains all the essential amino acids and is especially high in Branched-chain amino acids (BCAAS) ,which promote muscle growth, and glutamine (which is an immune-boosting amino acid). Whey is a very fast-absorbing protein, it enters your system faster than most proteins, making it very anabolic (pro-muscle growth). "a whey protein meal produces a 68% increase in protein synthesis".
When and how to use whey: Immediately after an intense workout, combining it with a high-glycemic carbohydrate may be the ideal post-workout meal.
Fish - Dr. Antonio puts fish as the best all-around protein source. Fish earns that title because it is not only a complete protein, but it also contains healthy fats not found in land dwelling animals.
Why Fish? Eating fish improves your insulin sensitivity. There are differing theories on why fish improve insulin sensitivity, but the end result is that less insulin may mean less fat deposition.
When and how to use fish : "Fish should be the primary protein food that you eat. It has a great amino acid profile and confers health benefits - related both to the protein itself and the omega-3 fatty acids - that you just can't find in other proteins."
Soy Protein - Soy is the best non-animal source of protein. "...often accused of being inferior.....because it can be limiting in the amino acid methionine...methionine supplementation in an adult's diet is usualy not necessary because at levels normally consumed, soy protein provides sufficient methionine."
Why Soy? Soy protein is as digestible as other types of protein and has 'powerful anti-oxidant capabilities' which may provide health and anti-cancer benefits. Soy-based meal replacements have been shown in recent studies to be effective at 'lowering body weight, fat mass and reducing LDL cholesterol.'
When and how to use soy: Soy is best used as part of your meal-replacement powder. There are also many different soy products on the market (soy milk, tofu, miso soup).
Milk - "There is an assortment of bioactive peptides that have been identified in milk which may improve your overall health, as well as provide the amino acids needed for active individuals."
Why Milk? Milk contains all of the essential amino acids, and those bioactive peptides. Stick to low-fat or skim milk if you are trying to get or stay lean.
When and how to use milk : Because most of the protein in milk is casein, and casein is a slow-absorption protein, milk is a good evening protein supplement. Drink milk before bed and you wil get a slow feed of amino acids while you sleep. This supply of amino acids means your body has what it needs on hand to facilitate muscle recovery.
Chicken - (you knew it had to be on the list somewhere, didn't you?) Probably the single most consumed protein. The fat content can vary dramatically if you eat the skin. "a 100g serving of light-meat chicken with skin contains 222 calories and 10.85g of fat compared to 173 calories and 4.51g of fat if you remove the skin." 141% more fat with the skin!
Why Chicken? It has a complete amino acid profile and is a low-fat choice when skinless. As part of a well-rounded diet chicken can "decrease total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol".
When and how to use chicken : As part of your regular meals. (More recipes will be forthcoming!)
Casein - This is the main protein found in milk. You can also find it in various protein supplements, meal-replacement shakes and powders. Because casein 'clots' in your stomach (ain't that a pretty image?) it is a slower absorbing protein.
Why Casein? Casein has 'opposite' properties of whey protein. They are both great proteins, but where whey has anabolic effects, casein is lacking and where whey lacks anti-catabolic effects casein has 'a very profound anti-catabolic effect' which means it inhibits muscle breakdown.
When and how to use casein: Similar to milk, this is a good protein to consume before bed, maybe make a shake with casein powder and milk for a double whammy to aid in recovery overnight.
Eggs - Eggs are back on the good list! They got a bad rap for awhile for having too much fat and cholesterol. Some rate eggs as the highest quality protein, and the yolk is full of vitamins and minerals.
Why Eggs? Eggs are rich in essential vitamins and minerals. Egg consumers have a higher daily nutrient intake, especially vitamins B12, C, E and A. Also people who ate 4 or more eggs daily "had lower blood cholesterol levels than those who ate one egg or less daily." And eggs are CHEAP!
How and when to use eggs : Omelets are a great way to get your daily eggs, using one whole egg and three or more egg whites (depending on your protein needs). Throw in some vegetables and soy cheese and you have a great way to start the day! If you are trying to cut back on calories, you could just use the whites (but you will miss out on some of the nutrient benefits).
Beef - The fat content of beef can vary greatly, look for 90% lean or leaner. The article gives a tip that may be helpful - the cuts at the beginning of the alphabet have more fat than those at the end of the alphabet (ground Beef has more fat than ground Sirloin, for example).
Why Beef? Beef has all the essential amino acids, making it an excellent protein source, and is also loaded with zinc and iron. Beef, like eggs, has gotten an undeserved bad rap. The key is to choose lean beef. "A study published in 'Nutrition' found that two groups of overweight women who exercised and consumed a restricted-calorie diet with either lean beef or chicken as the main protein source both demonstrated similar weight loss...decreases in body fat percentage, total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol."
How and when to use beef: Once or twice a week, as part of your regular diet. "Because of the fat content (even lean beef has a bit of fat), don't eat it right after exercise."
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2005/03/09, 11:49 AM
Lets put this to rest, shall we? This is beating a dead horse at its finest. I suggest that all who believe in drinking milk post workout, do so. Those that don't, do so with water. End of story. All folks will inevitably make gains with proper diet.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/09, 12:00 PM
I can only speak for myself here but yes it is your mistake. I'm sorry if cbas upset you but its not me I can assure you. new members join here almost every day as far as I can see. If you want to believe that I am its up to you I dont't realy care! I will not respond again on this subject thats my last word.
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Quoting from princesslodgey:
So you (and also hi_there123) joining FT on the same day that Cbas's latest persona, TheTerminator, got banned is just a coincidence? Sorry, my mistake.
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2005/03/09, 12:07 PM
newboy, I reckon your question has been well answerd. If you can't bare to sacrifice milk for water in just one shake then as far as I am concerned you can't be all that committed. Its not an issue of taste either because you can use flavour. Any way I'm with bb1fit. Its time to press on.
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2005/03/09, 12:39 PM
ok the post by assimmer is ver informative thanks:big_smile:
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2005/03/09, 05:48 PM
:big_smile:
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2005/03/09, 06:11 PM
Thank the lord!
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Scales are for dead weight: We are not dead yet!
Still trying to find out how to do the Hollywood Free Press.
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
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2005/03/09, 06:24 PM
:big_smile::big_smile::big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/09, 09:05 PM
This is yet another instance of your ignorance of what you are talking about. Both these references deal with glut4(glucose tranporter), and this exactly what is referred to in my post at both of those points.(and exactly the point of the whole discussion).
I can readily assume 2 things by your posts, and a 3rd...
1...you do not know how to interpret a study
2...you have no valid argument
3....I could add one final, but I will save it, and let anyone who has read your posts ascertain this number for themselves.
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Quoting from newboy1:
I checked the two references given by bb1fit (credit to google scholar) and both documents were on an unrelated topic.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/10, 04:26 AM
Of course Im ignorant, Thats why I was asking the question. I am not knowledgable on these matters that is why I am asking you. I was not questioning you, I was trying to get some relyable info. I did look up the references you provided and to save myself from having to read through them I did a word search for casein and came up with nothing. Why do you think I am arguing with you because I am asking questions. If you dont like answering questions then why do you respond?. I think you have some insecurity issues that need addressing. You obviously interpreted my questions as a direct chalenge to you when nothing can be farther than the truth. I came to you for advise! You say in your latest post that I have no valid argument. Where did you get that I was arguing?? because I asked you to give good reason for the advise you was giing. Well I think you should rest your ego a little and not get so paranoid. I have not claimed to be knowledgeable on health topics in any way so how the heck can you feel chalenged by me?? Sorry if I have offended you in any way but none of my posts were intended to attack you.
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2005/03/10, 04:37 AM
Not to give you any more greif, but am I looking in the right place.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=1607382
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2005/03/10, 04:59 AM
ohh geez
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I am that
which must be feared, worshipped and adored. The world is mine
now and forever.No one holds command over me. No man. No god. I am ANIMAL! and that is enough.
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2005/03/10, 01:20 PM
This is over, let this thread die and dwindle to deep depths of the archives.
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2005/03/10, 01:37 PM
Okay, everyone.
Everybody keeps saying to drop it, but then they continue. Since some of you can't converse in a constructive matter, this thread ends now. Any more posts will be deleted.
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Michael
Nothing personal.... Strictly business.
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2005/03/10, 02:26 PM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2005/03/10, 03:09 PM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2005/06/25, 06:27 AM
Milk is only good when from chemical free, grass fed cows and kept in its Raw form. www.mercola.com
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2005/07/04, 12:24 AM
Protein in a chemical :)
chemicals ar our friends :love:
Im gonna go back to elementaryschool to find out why the timing of protein injestion matters. Still trying to understand why 'later' is too late.
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