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2005/11/19, 09:37 PM
I don't have any rotator cuff problems now... I would like to prevent them. I am adding some movements to my routine...
What I am wondering is, what sort of set/rep range would we be looking at? High reps - low weight or low reps - high weight?
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/20, 12:43 PM
In my opinion you need lighter weight and higher reps. This joint is not built to take heavy weights directly.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/11/20, 01:04 PM
Thanks, Mutt. More or less what I thought... small muscles and all.
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/20, 01:30 PM
The best way to prevent them is by good warmup pre workout. This can be done in numerous ways, such as taking a 5 or 10 lb, weight plate in each hand, and simply doing straight out cirular movements, forwards and then backwards, nice and slowly. And above the head the same way.
Another simple thing is if you have a seated medial delt machine, get on it with a light weight and do about 30 reps very deliberately. Remember, the anterior delt is abused heavily in bench press, and this is also a time to warm it up well, not just on shoulder days.
Many heavy benchers get very sore if not hurt delts due to this, they don't realize just how much delts are abused in the bench press. In fact, I have cut out all anterior isolation movements, and have not suffered a lick in that area.
I know we are talking medail delts for the most part in your question rather than anterior, but they all are weak links and tie in together.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2005/11/20, 07:12 PM
Thanks bb1, but does that mean one does not have to have separate rotator cuff exercises?
I was planning on doing rotator stuff on chest days? Good idea?
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/20, 08:59 PM
Yes, good idea. That was exactly what was meant by part of my post as to heavy benchers getting shouder/rotator injuries. I would surely suggest doing this on bench days, in fact I do either one of the two I posted, depending on which strikes me that day. Either will do nicely.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2005/11/20, 09:29 PM
Thanks again!
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/20, 09:48 PM
Tim, I do couple 20 rep sets to warm up and then move on to weight I can do 8-12 times...rotator cuff muscles are delicate but they work as hard as others muscles...when u maxing out on bench, your rotator cuffs are doing their share of the work...so they can be trained pretty hard....the form has to be perfect and u have to warm up thoroughly....as with other excercises.....prehabilitation is quite different from rehabilitation since you're healthy and are doing it to prevent injuries....accordingly the weight used is much different...no point to doing it for 20+ reps with 2.5lb DBs....
http://catalog.nucleusinc.com/generateexhibit.php?ID=9307&ExhibitKeywordsRaw=&TL=32737&A=2
I primarily do external and internal rotation exercises with cables, and DBs when the weight is fairly light for warm ups....
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2005/11/20, 10:27 PM
Thanks, menace...
I was planning on doing those movements prior to chest (bench, dips, etc)...
I have noticed in the past after a chest day, particularly bench, my shoulders are a little sore.
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/21, 03:22 AM
I would do them after...as a finisher for chest/shoulder movements....I don't see any need to do them prior to pressing movements....I usually do them after bench/military presses with about 6-8 sets total(3-4 internal and then 3-4 external rotation)...
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2005/11/21, 09:30 AM
Thanks, guys!
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/21, 12:42 PM
Tim, I posted this a while after my rotator cuff surgery.
Jayhawks, I'm rehabing from rotator cuff surgery. It wouldn't hurt to have a Dr check it out. You may just have a strain but if it is torn you need to know.
From what the therapist has told me, the strengthening and rehab exercises are about the same. All should be done with very light weights
1 Lay on your back with a towel folded under your elbow to keep it in the same plane as your shoulder. Bend forearm 90 degrees up. With about a 5 lb weight rotate the forearm out sideways and down until it touches the floor. Do 10 reps 3 sets. Build up to 30 reps 3 sets.
2 Lay on your side with forearm in same 90 degree position. Move the weight up until your fist points at the ceiling. Same weight reps and sets. Therapist said 8 or 10 lbs was the MAX ever needed for these exercises but build up to that.
3 Cable pulldowns with light weight/ high reps
4 Cable pulldown behind the head kneeling on floor.
5 Lay on floor with broom handle Straight armed lift handle up and back to floor. Hold for 10 seconds and lift back up over and down till the bar is touching your thighs.
6 Closed grip pushups. Start by doing 1/2 push ups at first and build to complele ones with time.
These exercises require very light weights high reps and good form. If you haven't torn the rotator cuff, these may help but you won't know unless its checked. If you can, consulting with a physical therapist is very helpful
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Sometimes life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2005/11/21, 12:53 PM
I on the other hand would suggest doing a bit of rotator warmup as mentioned pre bench. Over the long haul, it will pay off. Of course you may get by days, months, even years without this, but the damage can be minute each time and it is additive. Choose for yourself, almost 30 yrs. doing this stuff and have paid a few learning prices along the way. :)
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2005/11/21, 01:01 PM
I have used these exercises for warm up since the surgery. Actually I got in the habit of doing them 3 days a week. I have 100% movement and no pain. Never wanna go through it again. Takes about 5 to 10 minutes.
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Sometimes life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2005/11/21, 01:03 PM
Excellent points. A lot of people think that a shoulder injury is a one time thing, that it just all of a sudden happens. I can tell you personally, most shoulder injuries are the result of negligence (yes, even your's truly has been irresponsible with his training at times). I do one set prior to light bench press as part of my warm up for bench press, and then a couple sets at the end of my workout.
Also, like menace said, there is no point in using minute weights... Stick with higher reps, but if you feel you can increase the weight in the 15-30 rep range, then by all means. I'm not sure where your at, but lets say your benching 200lbs... Do you think your rotators only have to support 2.5lbs??? Work up in weight, but be smart about it.
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/21, 06:46 PM
Thanks again, guys....
Appreciate the comments..! I'll give the suggestions a go in an effort to prevent the nasty shoulder injury...
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2005/11/21, 08:17 PM
Yep, proactive is the key. Reactive sucks.:big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2005/11/22, 08:56 AM
I still don't see need to warm up rotator cuff muscles before pressing movements....you're in essence prexhausting a tiny muscle before big/compound movements....I may be way off but it seems like that would only weaken this area and predispose it to possible injuries.....
Just from personal observations....starting light is fine...but you have to keep progressing...you may start with 2.5/5lb when u're rehabbing but once u get to 30s...u shouldn't stop...or whatever else target u hit...I have rehabbed after lower back and shoulder injuries and the only thing that gave me consistant results was consistantly pushing myself ....a while back I messed up my lower back and it nagged for over 6 months....started doing extensions and deadlifts and even through some pain persisted....3 years forward I am deadlifting ton of weight and my lower back is my strongest bodypart...what would have been the point of doing light weight for ton of reps.......(I realize that lower back and rotator cuffs are much different muscles but I think my point still holds...because I heard people of using similar reasons for lower back)
same thing happened to my shoulders....I messed up my left shoulder and it last over 18 months...started doing consistant rotator cuff work while trying to go progressively heavier even through severe soreness got it much stronger....now my right shoulder got messed up few months back....nothing helped except once again rotator cuff work with progressively heavier weights...I at first approached it with caution and did 2.5-15lb Dbs...but that accomplished very little....I noticed I have difficulty supporting heavier DBs so I switched to doing more cable work for cuffs....once again it may be a small muscle...but it does its share of the work...and also since Tim is 'prehabilitating' there's no point to using 5lb weights...If you're very cautious I think coming close to max on at least the last set in the 20 rep range is a good mix of safety/progress...and trying to push the max progressively higher over time...
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2005/11/22, 09:46 AM
:) menace I lost track of how many injuries you mentioned in that post. The problem with these kind of injuries is that they're cumulative. Wait about 30 years and you'll possibly see the advantage of being more conservative. I'll agree with you that I don't do a reason for super light weights but I'll pre-fatique shoulders in virtually every shoulder workout But then I also don't combine pure shoulder workouts with any other body part unless it's legs.
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Mike
in Pensacola Now.
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2005/11/22, 12:59 PM
The reason for the shoulder stuff is not to pre exhaust, this is silly. It is simply very light stuff to get some blood flowing in the area, lubrication, so they are not hit totally cold. Pre-exhaust is a totally different animal.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2005/11/22, 01:04 PM
By the way, if doing the light stuff I suggested pre-exhausts your shoulders, then you need some shoulder work, because they are indeed very weak.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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