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2003/12/16, 08:40 AM
I have always felt that if our body already makes something then why add to it. Your body always tries to maintain homeostasis. If we as a compound such as creatine then our body will eventually produce less. I would rather battle through my plateaus then use a supplement and cheat my way through the battle. The battle is what hardens our spirit and gives us drive. If a supplement is the easy solution does it teach you any thing? And when I say supplement, I don't mean your daily protein shake.
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2003/12/17, 11:06 PM
well i dont take anything else besides a protein shake or a vitamin. Are bodies produce creatine right? well can't we get like creatine catabolism if we dont have enough? like a protein catabolism. Anyway most people want results and strength usually as fast as they can get it. I dont know how much they care about what happens to their bodies later. So i hope this helps. (you probably already know this)
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2003/12/18, 11:35 AM
We take supplements as the name supplements implies if we are smart. Gator, you are right in one sense, as most take supplements due to advertising claims of get huge fast, get shredded fast, you know the scoop. 95% of what we do is through heavy hard training and proper diet. Supplements come in for the folks who have thourougly exhausted the 95%, and so the 5% you get from supplements can actually be of benefit.
That being said, it would be rediculous not to take advantage at opportune times of the quality supplements that are available.
Protein is essential at one time in particular, and this is post training. Whey isolate is quickly absorbed, and this is ideal at this time. If you wait to eat a meal, you have missed a prime opportunity. It is also useful if you have trouble meeting your protein needs for the day, and for a taste break.
As for creatine, here is the scoop on it. It is one of the most researched supplements in history.
When your body uses ATP, it breaks one phosphate off of it which produces energy. This burst fuels contractions. What is left after a phosphate is broken off of ATP is the molecule called ADP.
Our muscle fibers contain 5 times as much creatine phosphate then it does ATP. Your cell sends out enzymes that break off the phosphate from the creatine. The Energy released from this sever and the phosphate molecule are recombined with the ADP to again form ATP. The PC system provides an additional 10 to 20 seconds of energy to allow us, as bodybuilders to continue an intense set!
A process such as this can occur in the blink of an eye, which makes it very efficient! Again, for the conscious athlete this will provide a good 15-20 seconds more energy for contractions, and perhaps a bit more. You see creatine phosphate stores run out about this time. In total ATP stores and the creatine phosphate system provide about 25-30 seconds of maximum muscular contraction. This system is the powerhouse for extremely high intensity activities. If it is weak then you will have a difficult time lifting heavy weights for any extended period of time. This will be extremely detrimental if your goal is to hit the denser fast twitch IIb fibers.
One way to increase your creatine stores is obvious. You can easily saturate your muscle cells with creatine by actually supplementing with it.
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Quoting from GOWAR:
well i dont take anything else besides a protein shake or a vitamin. Are bodies produce creatine right? well can't we get like creatine catabolism if we dont have enough? like a protein catabolism. Anyway most people want results and strength usually as fast as they can get it. I dont know how much they care about what happens to their bodies later. So i hope this helps. (you probably already know this)
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/18, 11:36 AM
I think you may get into a philosophical argument here. But, let me ask you this, what about those individuals who don't produce certain compounds because of age or other factor? Or how about those hardgainers?
Just playing devil's advocate...
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2003/12/18, 12:11 PM
What compounds aren't produced as a result of age Robert?
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/18, 12:21 PM
clarity of thought you old poop!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/18, 12:32 PM
Actually, I meant not enough...such as testosterone.
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2003/12/18, 12:36 PM
And Creatine does what for this? Other suppliments?
Muttersnapper, I submitted pictures of me and my buffalo. My thoughts were definitly not too clear that day. And speaking of clarity of thought, you let Roberts testosterone reply slide by you without comment. Whose thoughts aren't too clear now? HHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM???????? lol
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/18, 12:42 PM
In all seriousness, I agree with gator. I have contintually seen improvements with just eating whole foods. I do not even use shakes, or bars, mainly cause I can nto afford them. But also because I feel they are not needed. Most have too much stuff in them I do not need or want. However as BB1 and othes have said some people need that extra push to get what they need.
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/18, 12:52 PM
I am curious about supplenents for the more mature because I am one. I hope I look like Ron when I reach his more advanced years. I only use a protien supplement now and multi vitamins but I am curious. I am too old and skeptical to probably ever use much more but I am compiling a list to ask my Doc about the next time I see him.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/18, 12:58 PM
If you're not getting from your food sources the "essentials" that your body needs (EFAs, and the essential protein building blocks like the arginines, glutamines, Mr. Cleans, Pantenes, Listerines, etc.), then I suppose supplementing is the way to go. I think it's a matter of lifestyle. Whole food items are always preferred, though, in my book. But eating fresh, whole food items every 3 hours can be tough for some - and nearly impossible for others. In a pinch, I'd rather down a pricey, low carb protein shake with flax oil than something unplanned and unhealthy.
Interesting that there are "essential" fats, and essential proteins that you need to build muscle, but I don't think I've ever heard of "essential" carbs... Hmmmm. Maybe there's something to this Atkins, low-carb band wagon...LOL
TSMD
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2003/12/18, 03:20 PM
Essential fats are not at all just for bodybuilding. You do not need EFA's to build muscle. These are essential for optimal health. As are vitamins and minerals that are stripped from processed foods. Here is some facts on EFA's. These should be used even if not bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is not the point here, essential health is!
Research on flax and the Omega-3 fatty acids it contains has resulted in a near panacea regarding the number of diseases and afflictions that it can relieve. Flax oil fights heart disease by lowering dangerous LDL cholesterol and triglycerides, as well as decreasing the viscosity of thick blood, and reducing the build up of atherosclorotic plaque on artery walls. The list goes on to include relief and amelioration of:
Cancer
Cardiovascular disease
Skin conditions including: dry skin, psoriasis, eczema, acne
Immuno suppression
Depression
Fatigue
Allergies
Behavioral disorders
Arthritis
Chronic viral, bacterial and fungal infections
Inflammatory bowel disease
Kidney disease
Health should be your first and foremost requirement. EFA's fit this. Antioxidants fit this. The trick is to choose wisely, overlook media hype, and use what works for optimal wellness.
And, carbs in fact are essential. Without proper carbs, you will have a very difficult time with many things, as carbs are your fuil system and needed for glucose production for everything we do.
And if you are weight training, creatine is the most researche bodybuilding supplement ever, and in countless studies has been proven safe and effective(there is about 30% non responders)super safe, and can bust one past a plateau. I am the biggest fan of proper diet, but there are things that will aid you, and if you do not take advantage of them, it is your loss.
And Mutt, when you start dieting for contests and get anywhere near that level, I would love to hear you still say you wouldn't and aren't using anything. When you have plenty of "stores", there is no problem drawing on anything. You do not need glutamine, creatine, etc. Be smart.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/18, 03:48 PM
Ron, the food list you posted is at one time or another all part of our regular diet. We are both excellent cooks and processed foods are rarely in our daily food intake. I have no plan of ever seriously competing with anything other than the ocean in my boat. Can you be specific as to the supplements that a senior male should add to an already good diet? If permissable in the rules of the board could you name names and name brands.
In addition to the best foods we can eat, we use hydrosilated protien post work out and I use protiencustomizers day formula together with eggwhites and raw oatmeal for a morning shake. Talk plain buddy, I'm not the sharpest tack in the box.
I hope you other guys don't mind my jumping in since i'm not a serious body builder.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/18, 04:06 PM
Yo BB1!
Certainly didn't mean to imply to you or anyone that I think carbs are not essential for optimum health. My point was that I've never heard nor read the term "essential carbs" like I have heard and read about essential fats and essential proteins. I think most would agree that a healthy lifestyle combines certain ratios of all macro nutrients, not just ones that have been labeled "essential".
Nonetheless, this lead me to consider that, while needed for optimal health, what if carbs may not actually be essential in the life-sustaining sense, like I believe that protein and EFAs are? Many of you experts may have already proven or disproven this, but it just kind of hit me, and I really don't know...
Plus, in support of my curiousity, isn't there evidence of extremely-carb-limited cultures like certain groups of Eskimos "sustaining" life (perhaps not optimally, but sustaining nonetheless) with diets of nearly 100% (essential) fats and proteins? Just food for thought. Didn't mean to step on toes or give bad advice!
Getting back to Gator's original post, I'm getting more and more confused! Is creatine considered essential (as in, essential to support life, not essential to promote good health)? In other words, does the body manufacture creatine? I was under the mistaken impression that we could only get creatine directly from our nutrition (steaks) or through direct supplementation (powder), just like EFAs (fish or EFA pills)... unlike carbs which, while I agree are optimal for good health, could be and sometimes are replaceable in our bodies by fats as the body's fuel source (as in low/no carb diets). Again, not in the perfect world, but possible...
Set me straight, guys, I getting more and more confused!
TSMD
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2003/12/18, 04:16 PM
"And Mutt, when you start dieting for contests and get anywhere near that level, I would love to hear you still say you wouldn't and aren't using anything. When you have plenty of "stores", there is no problem drawing on anything. You do not need glutamine, creatine, etc. Be smart.": Geez BB1 are you yelling at me? I never said one could not partake of those supplements. I stated that I feel too much credit is given to them when a lot of what you need is already out there in food. I have no plans of competeing in any BB contest as that is not my bag. However, saying that as a serious trainer I can not reach what goals I might have simply cause I do not use the "science and research" out there is very much not right. Sure I amy not look like a fitness model, and yeah i eat way to much, but I do know that for those of use that are money tight, adding all those "needed"supplements is nto possible! What kind of aid do I need I have burst through each plateau on my own. Just because I advocate not going nucking futs with supplements, does not mean I look down on those that do take them. I just feel that for the average joe it really is not neccessary. Sorry BB1!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/18, 06:32 PM
First, let me emphasize that our bodies already produce creatine naturally. Did you ever watch the transformers when you were a kid? Well if not, there were groups of robots called " combiners. " They would join together and form an even larger and more massive robot, crushing everything in their paths! Our liver does the same thing with the three amino acids, Arginine, Glycine and Methionine. It combines them to form creatine, much like the constructicons combined to form devistator!
That being said, it is also important to understand that over 95 percent of this substance is found in our muscles. With the remainder being stored in our brain, heart and other parts of our bodies.
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Quoting from tenorsaxmandave:
Yo BB1!
Certainly didn't mean to imply to you or anyone that I think carbs are not essential for optimum health. My point was that I've never heard nor read the term "essential carbs" like I have heard and read about essential fats and essential proteins. I think most would agree that a healthy lifestyle combines certain ratios of all macro nutrients, not just ones that have been labeled "essential".
Nonetheless, this lead me to consider that, while needed for optimal health, what if carbs may not actually be essential in the life-sustaining sense, like I believe that protein and EFAs are? Many of you experts may have already proven or disproven this, but it just kind of hit me, and I really don't know...
Plus, in support of my curiousity, isn't there evidence of extremely-carb-limited cultures like certain groups of Eskimos "sustaining" life (perhaps not optimally, but sustaining nonetheless) with diets of nearly 100% (essential) fats and proteins? Just food for thought. Didn't mean to step on toes or give bad advice!
Getting back to Gator's original post, I'm getting more and more confused! Is creatine considered essential (as in, essential to support life, not essential to promote good health)? In other words, does the body manufacture creatine? I was under the mistaken impression that we could only get creatine directly from our nutrition (steaks) or through direct supplementation (powder), just like EFAs (fish or EFA pills)... unlike carbs which, while I agree are optimal for good health, could be and sometimes are replaceable in our bodies by fats as the body's fuel source (as in low/no carb diets). Again, not in the perfect world, but possible...
Set me straight, guys, I getting more and more confused!
TSMD
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/18, 08:35 PM
Thanks, Ron.
Now then, Transformers? Ron, when I was young, TV hadn't been invented yet!LOL And I couldn't just pass away the hours watching cartoons, anyway... I was too busy walking uphill both ways to school.
And looking at that list of afflictions again, "inflammatory bowel disease"... Eeecchhhh! Doesn't that just make your butt cheeks scrunch up! (Sorry - I know, serious thread, but yikes!)...
...So then, Arginine, Glycine and Methionine are the BIG 3 from which all of the other aminos can be formed? Or just creatine is formed? (I know I should have paid closer attention in organic chemistry.) Aren't there in the neighborhood of like 17 or 19 specific amino acids (don't know why those #s stick in my head)? I guess I thought they ALL were "essential" (i.e., not "produced" by the body), not just 3 of them. Still a little bit confused, but I'm really trying! Thanks.
Yo Gator, sorry man, for hijacking your thread.
TSMD
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2003/12/18, 10:48 PM
Mutt, I would never yell at you buddy! Did not mean it badly, sorry if it read that way. Depending on your goals, supplements can be very effective if utilized correctly. You and many on this board may well remember my rant against the supplement companies, so you know I am no fan of theirs. But, there are useful ones if you can get past the hype, and when diet and training are exhausted, as happens with folks training for years, supplements can make that extra 5%. My apologies if I sounded like I was yelling.
By the way, today is my birthday!! Happy birthday to me!! LOL....Big Five Two today!
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
Geez BB1 are you yelling at me?
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/19, 02:00 AM
Happy B-day BB1! Without protein supps, I couldn't find time to eat what I need, but I understand everyone's opinion. My deal is the time involved. I'm sure we are all busy with our lives and this is not to say that I'm harder working than anyone here. Its just that I truly can NOT make time to eat all that I need during the day.
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May the lift be with you.
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2003/12/19, 07:51 AM
Happy birthday! Another old man to join the geezer club! LOL seriously looking like you do at 52 is great! I knew you would not yell at me....I just think this supplement thing is a liitle overblown by all the companies out there. By that I mean I know some is needed and actually helpful, but comon they make it sound like I will DIE if I do not take all their crap!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/19, 10:17 AM
Well now I'll ask Ron, Did I piss you off?I feel totally ignored. lol, You must have missed my question above Happy birthday, its nice to have at least one here older than me.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/19, 10:39 AM
Geez you guys, I don't get mad at anyone! My wife says I am the most even tempered person she has ever seen! We haven't even had a fight in almost 2 yrs. I do not believe in the stress of it, it in itself is a killer and responsible for more deaths than anything out there. So, that being said, sorry Charlie, missed your post.
So, us seniors, huh?,,,LOL...Well, I have been into health for many years before I ever started bodybuilding. So, my feelings are a good multivitamin, extra Vit. C, Vit. E, and B-Complex are the top antioxidants and needed for prime health. I believe flax oil or fish oils would also be lumped in there. These are essential for so many things, see my list above. My favorite name brands are for Vitamins, I like a health food store brand over a wal mart brand. Solaray, Source of Life, and a good middle of the road company that is probably the cheapest of the bunch is Now. They make a full spectrum of vitamins/minerals. As far as flax or fish oils, either Barleans or Spectrum are both good.
Now, as far as bodybuilding goes, the only one that is reallly essential is protein, and this is simply to meet your protein needs and post workout with a simple carb source(dextrose and malto). Glutamine can help, but this depends on how intensely you train. Our recovery abilities are not like a 20 yr. olds anymore, though we don't want to admit that! So any recovery aid can be of benefit, and glutamine is fairly cheap. If I buy glutamine, I buy Beverlys glutamine, theirs is 100% pure, pharmaceutical grade L-Glutamine and nothing else.
Creatine is not essential in any way, unless you are totally plateaued and cannot break out in any way, and are getting very serious about doing it. YOur protein sources are excellent, and it looks like you have the bases covered with them.
And if you are doing this on a consistant basis Charlie, that is training and keeping a good diet, you most definitely are a serious bodybuilder. You may not compete, but you are working to make your body better and healthier. This too is bodybuilding, for a different reason. You are doing great man. For an old geezer like me!
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Quoting from charlie826:
Ron, the food list you posted is at one time or another all part of our regular diet. We are both excellent cooks and processed foods are rarely in our daily food intake. I have no plan of ever seriously competing with anything other than the ocean in my boat. Can you be specific as to the supplements that a senior male should add to an already good diet? If permissable in the rules of the board could you name names and name brands.
In addition to the best foods we can eat, we use hydrosilated protien post work out and I use protiencustomizers day formula together with eggwhites and raw oatmeal for a morning shake. Talk plain buddy, I'm not the sharpest tack in the box.
I hope you other guys don't mind my jumping in since i'm not a serious body builder.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/19, 10:50 AM
The doc told me to take a b complex , e and the c is in my b complex and desicated liver so I guess I'm covered there. Who knew? I really don't consider vitamins to be the type of supplement Gatormadr is speaking of. You know missing posts like that is a sign of ....uh ...Well somthing. I'm too old to remember. BTW there were no transformers when we were kids. There was Sky king, Sea Hunt and most of the puppies here would be amazed to know that the Beaver was actually a little kid.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/19, 11:02 AM
Ahh, the Beaver! I know what you mean. I wasn't very taken with the Cleavers though. I am more of an Osbourne type of person. These are the real life families. Though I did like Eddie Haskell!
Beaver does make me think of one of my favorite lines, from "Airplane", (one of my favorite movies of all time by the way) when Pricilla Presely is coming down the ladder, and leslie Neilson saying, "Nice beaver", and she hands him a beaver and says thanks!
I remember Sky King, not much of a fan of his though. I was and still am a huge Munster fan and I liked the Adams family also. Still sometimes catch when I can Redd Foxx on Sanford and Son. Was maybe my all time favorite comedy. Never ever missed one of those. And of course the kings, the Three stooges. When I was a kid, they had a 3 stooges before each double feature I went to every weekend. (yes, there was such a thing as a double feature!)
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/19, 11:34 AM
In the general exercise group tonymiller wrote
" WHAT IS TSMD and 7707mutt"
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ANTONYMILLAR@YAHOO.CO.UK
I couldn't resist replying
"TSMD is a rocket scientist at NASA who invented a revolutionary propulsion system. Mutt is what else? His dog."
"All too Easy" ---Darth Vader Star Wars 1979
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/19, 12:11 PM
Great reply!! Charlie, you are good!
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/19, 12:26 PM
I hate to break it to you bb1fit, but the movie that you are thinking of is "The Naked Gun". A great movie
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2003/12/19, 01:06 PM
You guys are nuts.... but getting back to the original topic:
I'm going to have to jump in and say that, though I believe that a solid foundation in whole food and no-holes-barred training is the basis for making great gains in strength, I also believe that the increased knowledge over the last 20 years of better and correct manipulation of diet, training, and, yes, even some supplements, has allowed us to witness the breaking of the 600 and 700 pound barrier in the bench, as well as other formerly unattainable levels in all of the other strength lifts, such as the clean and jerk, squat, etc.
And charlie, I LMAO @ your Darth Vader quote, but it was from the Empire Strikes Back - 1980......LOL!
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Michael
Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!
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2003/12/19, 02:53 PM
Chondroitin
Glucosamine
ZMA
Pro-hormones (i.e. DHEA, etc.)
You can do more research on these using the following website: http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/
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Quoting from charlie826:
I am curious about supplenents for the more mature because I am one. I hope I look like Ron when I reach his more advanced years. I only use a protien supplement now and multi vitamins but I am curious. I am too old and skeptical to probably ever use much more but I am compiling a list to ask my Doc about the next time I see him.
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2003/12/19, 03:07 PM
Thanks Robert
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/24, 12:54 PM
I don't have a problem with food based supplements: protein, certain oils and fats, recovery shakes, etc...
I have a problem with supplementing substances our body already makes. Our body produces certain amounts of CP and testosterone for a reason. Some of which may not be known yet. When we start putting crap in our body that doesn't belong there it will eventually attempt to find homeostasis. Besides, those supplements are crutches pure and simple.
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