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2003/12/04, 03:44 AM
I enjoyed your little quotes and agree with you whole heartedly. why don't we all stop the hardcore movements put on spandex shorts and our tu tu's and work out on the crossbow or bowflex, because we know that those people in the commercials got that way by using only those up to date machines!
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2003/12/04, 01:13 AM
The article below is posted on flexonline.com, and was something that I couldn’t let go by without a discussion. My responses are in bold text and (parentheses). And I did shorten it, for boredom's sake.
I am going to send this in as a rebuttal, but, before I did, I wanted to shoot it past you guys and see what you thought. I welcome everyone's opinions, not just fellow strength athletes. I know that, at times, some of my remarks may seem a little harsh, and I must warn you of this ahead of time. But sometimes the truth hurts. Anyone who writes an irresponsible article like this deserves a lot worse than what I dished out:
7 "Classic" Exercises You Should Avoid
Written by: Bob Cicherillo, 2000 NPC USA Super-Heavyweight and Overall Champion
You don't have to do anything. (Like read this article, but I did….. Ugh!) The goons in the gym say you have to train balls-to-the-wall heavy on squats, bench presses and other "compound classics" if you want to be a hardcore bodybuilder. (And if you want to win a legitimate comp.) That's a load of B.S. You don't have to do anything except what works best for you, and the surprising truth is many free-weight basics are not the safest or most efficient lifts for building muscle mass. (Most of the time, these lifts are quite safe, and only become unsafe when you have someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing trying to perform them. And, sometimes, what is considered safe and what works best, like sports in general, can be two different things.)
Because I've been training (but not winning) for 25 years, people assume I work out old-school style with mostly barbells and compound lifts. (Ooooooo, I’m sure.) It's true that I trained that way for many years. However, I've also learned a few things over the past quarter century, and I've readily adapted to the advantages of modern bodybuilding. Most important, I've figured out what works, what doesn't and what can be improved. (That must be why it took you 25 years to get your Pro Card, and you’ve done what since?)
SQUATS
Let's start at the top, with the so-called "King of All Exercises." For advanced bodybuilders, this is more like the "King of All Back Breakers and Butt Builders." (They are also called ‘the lift that separates the men from the pansies.”) Like most trainers, I did squats for years, and I'm of two minds regarding their effectiveness. It's a good fundamental exercise for some, if kept in check. The problem is that too few people keep them in check, and many people just aren't built for them. (Also read, “don’t know how to do them.”)
Along with the bench press and the deadlift, the squat is one lift in which guys really pile on the plates for low reps. (Point?) The bottom line is if you're always going heavy, eventually there will be a straw that breaks the camel's or, in this case, the bodybuilder's back. (Amazing how the majority of strength athletes have survived all this time without knowing this info) It happened to me. Heavy squatting was the primary reason I had lower back surgery in 1998. (‘Nuff said regarding how to do them.)
Consider what you're doing when squatting. You have a heavy weight on your traps, sometimes more than 500 pounds, (Here, the pounds shouldn’t matter. If what he was saying were true, it wouldn’t matter if it were 500 lbs or 50 lbs.! It should all be relative) pressing down on your spine. Then you bend down, (Who said anything about bending down? No wonder he hurt himself!) putting your lumbar region in a vulnerable position, not to mention the strain on your knees and even your shoulders, from holding the bar. (ALL types of lifting, and sports, for that matter, put a strain on your body!) All of this is compounded if you're my height or taller. If you're Lee Priest or Dexter Jackson, (And they’ve placed in the top 10 at the Olympia) you can do squats all day with good form and little discomfort, but if you're over 5'10", it's tough to do them without bending forward too far. (So, I guess Kaz, Magnus, even Schwarzenegger, and a host of other athletes over 6’, have no clue about their training, and there is no way that, within the realm of the known laws of physics, that they were really that strong.)
Gym rats blindly worship at the squat racks because that's how it's always been. (And because it’s correct) The funny thing is I know guys who've been training more than 10 years who still squat because they say they need the legs. They haven't figured out that if it hasn't worked by now, it ain't gonna work. (Maybe that’s because the idiots are doing them wrong) The longer you've been training, the less you should squat. (Ooookay, that makes sense) In addition to the injury factor, once you have a foundation of mass, the squat can harm your appearance. It expands your hip flexors, glutes and upper thighs, which aren't typically areas in which experienced trainers need more size. (This is one of the most ridiculous myths yet about squats. I’ve yet to see any powerlifter with a big ass.) Over time, I think squats outlive their usefulness. (A lot like bodybuilders who think they automatically qualify as a trainer.)
Instead of traditional squats, I do hack squats and leg presses. They're better than squats for muscling up the quads and targeting different areas, and they're safer, too. (Not. But this a typical personal trainer’s thought pattern who doesn’t know anything.) I believe in full ranges of motion, all the way down and all the way up for these movements, and for leg presses, I take a relatively wide stance. The taller you are, the wider your stance should be. (Gasp! A full range of motion? Are you sure that won’t hurt something? And won’t that wide stance flair out your ass?)
BARBELL ROWS
I can't think of a good reason to do bent barbell rows. (Because they work.) Again, you're using a straight bar, which forces your hands and, consequently, your arms into a somewhat unnatural position, and again your lower back is vulnerable. (Only if you allow it.) T-bar rows are better because you stand more upright, putting less strain on your lumbar region, and you can usually take an angled or parallel grip. One-arm rows are also good, as long as you don't go too heavy. (No! Not heavy! Wouldn’t want to do that in the gym, now would we?)
DEADLIFTS
I won't condemn deads and say you should never do them, but too many people end up gaining little muscle (Where in the hell does this guy lift?) for all the straining they do and the injury risks they take. (Again, something that is avoidable 99% of the time.) Supposed bodybuilders load up a bar just to see how much they can lift. That's not bodybuilding (So, why are you talking about it? Don’t criticize the lift just because some moron doesn’t know how to do it correctly!) and, as with squats, many guys just aren't built for deadlifts (the ideal shape is short with relatively long arms), (Will someone please tell all of these 6’4” strength athletes to quit breaking records?) so this becomes a strength exercise that hits the glutes and legs as much as the back. (And your upper body, etc., etc. So what’s your point? Afraid of working too hard?)
Instead of traditional deadlifts, I prefer top deadlifts. You can do these on a Smith machine or a power rack. Set the safety catch or support bar so the bar can't go below knee-level. That way you focus mostly on your back instead of legs, hips and glutes, and you reduce the risk of injury. (Oh, yes, the Smith machine, which only allows strictly linear movement; this has a better range of motion than free weights? And that makes it safer how?)
BENCH PRESSES
For some odd reason, people take it personally if I say the bench press sucks. They consider it blasphemy. "You've got to bench to be hardcore," they say. I hate to break it to them, but most pro bodybuilders haven't done free-weight bench presses in years. Are you going to tell Tom Prince or Jay Cutler they're not hardcore because they don't bench? (Yep, I would. I do agree that the bench is an over-rated right of passage for the 16-year-old male pimple posses, and that it is probably the most dangerous lift in the gym, but that does NOT take away from it’s effectiveness.)
LYING TRICEPS EXTENSIONS
Here's a lift you should avoid just based on its nickname: skull crushers. (Awwww, does that name scare you?) That's taking "no pain, no gain" way too far. (Need I say more?) Again, lying triceps extensions are typically done with the dreaded straight bar. Worst of all, each rep starts and stops with your head as the base. That's not good, at least not for those of us who like our heads. (Give me a break! If you are that worried about an injury from some exercise as simple as this one, what are you doing in a gym in the first place!) If you want to do a two-hand free-weight extension, do French (Figures he’d like the French) presses, which at least won't bounce off your forehead, and always use a cambered bar.
MODERN ADVANTAGES
The common link among all the classic movements I dislike is that they were invented a hundred years ago before anyone had much knowledge of training, and they were just making it up as they went along. You don't see anyone doing one-arm kettledrum presses anymore. Other ancient exercises should be obsolete as well. I suppose we could still crank-start our cars, but I prefer to just slip my key in the ignition and turn it on. Trainers need to take advantage of the many modern tools they have at their disposal (Juice?) and not be too concerned about what others think is "hardcore."
You can be hardcore with Nautilus, Hammer Strength, Strive or whatever the latest computer-designed contraption is. Why not incorporate as many tools as you can? Too many guys get this ridiculous "hardcore" mentality, which ends up limiting their muscle gains. There is no rule that the more noise you make or the faster you drop the weight the quicker you'll grow, and there's no rule that you have to do certain exercises just because they've been around since the Sig Klein era. It's a new millennium. Training hardcore today doesn't mean limiting ourselves to the same movements our great-grandfathers performed. It means having the stones to say there are no sacred cows in bodybuilding, and it means doing only what works best for you to build maximum muscle.
(I know I was pretty brutal throughout the article, but all kidding aside. The problems I had with this entire article are probably best summed up in his last two paragraphs. These basic lifts may have been invented 100 years ago, but they have been used religiously by people who know better for those last 100 years for one reason: they work! (By the way, I have seen people do a one-arm kettle lift, and they are NOT anyone you just want to walk up to and tell them that they should only be using Nautilus!). You can notice his level of “expertise” by making such a red herring argument as comparing these lifts to crank start cars. I don’t think that even “Men’s Fitness” would publish this article.
Bill Starr, the famous strength coach from John Hopkins, said it best: Look strong; be strong. He had a great article in an old Iron Man mag, discussing how people don’t like to do any of the classic compound movements mostly because the lifts are tough and take a ton of time and effort. Machines are great for building the auxiliaries, and variety is great, but there is no way you can build a significant and threatening foundation on machines alone. I know that Bob aimed this at bodybuilders and not powerlifters (there’s a surprise!), but this doesn’t mean he’s correct. Bob mentions how no modern body builder uses these ancient lifts, which I doubt. But, maybe that’s why bodybuilders of more than 25 years ago were better and stronger athletes. They were able to back up their looks with something substantial – Franco Columbo routinely deadlifted 700 lbs plus at a bodyweight of 215! Show me someone today that can even come close to that. Bob can go ahead and criticize people like Klein and others, but take a look at their physiques and the numbers that they moved. Pound for pound, Bob here couldn’t even carry their gym bags.
I’m really surprised he didn’t tear into something like clean and jerks, or high pulls. Of course, that would assume he even knew what they were. And forget any type of “Dino” training. Judging from this article, as well as his lack of competition placing since earning his pro card, we can observe just how knowledgeable he is in regards to training. I only have one thing to say to him: “Get your high rep, low weight, ‘I just wanna tone’ ass out of my power cage!”)
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Michael
Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!
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2003/12/04, 01:19 AM
Just as a note: since my bold text doesn't show up here, the quote under "deadlifts" (the ideal shape is short with relatively long arms) is his statement, not mine...
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Michael
Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!
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2003/12/04, 08:03 AM
Hey Rev8ball, I workout at the gym Bob co owns. I have seen him lift and he does not use those lifts. While I think this article is a load of donkey poo, he had one or two items that were good....learn the form and do notuse weight you can handle. I have been lifting for 10 years, have used the deadlift and bentrows, and squats as well as skullcrushers. I have not ever had a injury caused by them. I think you are totaly correct in saying that most do not do them for the very fact that you can not whip thru a set of deadlifts etc. It takes time and effort to do them right! Great post!!!!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/04, 08:30 AM
Wow...great post. You're totally correct, Rev, in pointing out that Bob dismisses exercises simply because inexperienced lifters often do them incorrectly. Most lifters know that you're at risk for injury the second you step into the gym, so ALL exercises should be done with precise and correct form. I'm really surprised that article made it up anywhere, even if just on the internet.
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OSU Law Rugby....specializing in personal injury and pain & suffering.
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2003/12/04, 08:39 AM
mzakal it was a huge article in the Flex mag a month or so ago.....4 pages or so If I remember right...
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/04, 03:55 PM
When don't you feel discomfort when you squat? I feel muscular discomfort every time I squat. I don't feel joint discomfort though because I do them correctly! Since when was a strength coach famous from John Hopkins? Chuck from Westside Barbell squatted 1025 at a body weight of 225 and he does not look that strong. He is also fairly injury free.
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2003/12/04, 05:42 PM
Okay - I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought this. I was thinking that maybe I was over reacting...LOL! Thanks, guys...
Bill Starr has written a ton of papers and articles relating to strength training over the last 35 years, a lot of which were results of research studies done at John Hopkins Medical University. He has also been a contributing writer for MILO, PLUSA, and IronMan. But he is most famous for his strength-training book “Only the Strong Shall Survive.”
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Michael
Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!
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2003/12/04, 10:33 PM
That "NULL" post was me, i guess i left the screen the same for too long heheh
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2003/12/04, 10:53 PM
8BALL...This is one of those 'grey areas' that most bodybuilders don't want to touch with a ten foot barbell. I agree that some people are just not cut out for the heavy weight on these particular exercises, and frankly, get nowhere with results. Of course there are always exceptions to the laws of anatomy and genetics...lol. Great post and anyone who says 8BALL is less of a lifter because of this article can A.look at his pics...he's a monster! and B.Kiss our collective A$$es!
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OPINIONS ARE LIKE BUTTHOLES, EVERYONES GOT ONE. NOW, SHUT-UP AND GROW!!!
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2003/12/05, 12:37 AM
I don't even need to read the article, just the exercises mentioned, to agree with you.
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2003/12/06, 10:02 PM
I can't imagine NOT doing those excercises!! There just too much fun not to do. Nothing screams "TESTOSTERONE" like some heavy squats and deads!!
The comments were the best part, rev; nice job.
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--JBennett
"I've up-ed my intensity.... now up yours!"
"Pain is only weakness leaving the body."
"Never think of how weak you are; think of how strong you're going to be."
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2004/01/15, 12:42 PM
rev8ball,
You are a riot. Will you please post more articles with your comments injected?
It is interesting that research has shown that squats and dealifts (and most big, scary compound movements) stimulate more growth hormone than other exercises (no wonder he doesn't place higher).
I start even my 60-year old clients with squats, nothing teaches better mechanics for lifting and sitting and daily function than squats and different deadlift variations.
Benet over rows - only a problem if you don't know how to stabilize your core and you don't have good lumbar posture, which your trainer should be addressing anyhow before giving you advanced exercises.
And skullcrushers? MY GODDANG favorite triceps exercise, try 'em on the decline if you really want them to suck. But I have always one them with the cambered bar, for my elbows' comfort and never had any trouble, even pushing a lot of weight.
The bench press is a good exercise - if good form is used and weight isn't increased too much too fast, which is where most ding-dongs get in trouble. Good form and decent rotator cuff work a few times a week and the bench is all good!
Yes, lets all go back to using the outdated nautilus machines that track the weight for us and require no stabilizers to be involved or our core to be strong.
I agree, what an idiot. The sad part is how much he probably makes training people who don't know ny better and assume that they will get a physique like his if he trains them. (not gonna happen without the juice, honey).
Use good form and fear not the free weights.
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"To be able to go to the gym and train hard is a joy and a privelege, even though the hard work necessitates driving yourself through considerable discomfort. Savor this privelege and blessing, and revel in it."
Stuart McRobert, Beyond Brawn
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2004/01/15, 03:34 PM
That is too funny REV8...especially with the squatting part. Right on!
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/01/18, 06:16 PM
yea i have the magizine this was posted in...........i thought it was quite intresting my self, when peopel like arnold, lee, dorian,franco they all did these excercises and look at them! he don't do them... whats he done? lol........guess this is the difference in body builders and power/strength trainging....i belive i am gonna stop buying flex all thogether what they say oen month they contradict the next month.........and i'm tired of all the adds that i knwo aren't true.........and i don't need to increase my bench 4 months in a row lol
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!!
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2004/01/18, 11:50 PM
The above 'null' post was mine. Hopefully this has my sig.
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2004/01/21, 02:09 PM
What a joke man. I have only used the smith machine once because I didn't have my friends with me to spot. That was a big mistake because I could lift so much more than on a normal bench. Than when I went back to the normal bench I tried the same weight and I couldn't Bench, Squat,etc as much as I could on a smith machine. Just goes to show what happens when you don't need to use your stableizer muscles when lifting. You get a stronger ego. haha. The concept is cool because not everyone will alwayse have a spoter ( me at leist) and you wouldn't need one with it. But again it doesn't make your stableizers work with your other muscles. If someone invented something that was a normal bar and bench or whatever that self spoted but didn't take the other muscles out of the game than I would be on that all the time probably. But they don't and I don't like machines, I like lifting big masses of cold steel (or what ever weights are made of) that rubs your hands raw, not those panzy ass padded machines that are ment for, I don't know Panzies. I feel when using free weights like I should go and eat a blood soaked peice of meet and when I first started lifting I tried a machine and felt like eating like some dam tofu or something like that ( I don't eat blood filled steaks all the time hahaha). Machines are good for recovering from an injury or for exercises that you can't do with free weights like the neck (if anyone knows of an exercise for the neck feel free to share it with me because all though my work out plan has a neck machine exercise on it I haven't ever found a machine that works the neck.). Anyway that guy is one hell of a panzy I don't care if he is a pro bodybuilder he thinks like a panzy.
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USC #1, USC #1, USC #1 HOME TOWN SCHOOL #1 BABY YEA, LSU AND OSU ARE #2, AND 3.
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2004/01/21, 02:13 PM
Hey tool, dont mince words, say what you mean.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/22, 01:27 PM
I don't really know what I ment I was just rambleing really. But the guy that made that article is weird.
Hey charlie or anyone do you know of an exercise to work the neck muscles?
Thanks
Austin
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USC #1, USC #1, USC #1 HOME TOWN SCHOOL #1 BABY YEA, LSU AND OSU ARE #2, AND 3.
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