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2005/03/04, 09:09 PM
I have read a few posts on this site saying take water not milk with post workout shake, but what is the reason for this.
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2005/03/04, 09:16 PM
Because milk will slow the absorption of protein and at PWO you want it to get to your muscles as quiclky as possible.
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2005/03/04, 09:17 PM
The reason is the theory that milk can slow the absorbtion rate of whey protein. The protein in milk is cassein which forms for lack of a better term gel in the stomach. This blocks the ability of the whey to be absorbed. Whey is a very fast digesting protein and needs to get there quick so that the affects of cortisol can be counteracted.
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I am that
which must be feared, worshipped and adored. The world is mine
now and forever.No one holds command over me. No man. No god. I am ANIMAL! and that is enough.
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2005/03/05, 08:37 AM
so why is whey in milk then.
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2005/03/05, 08:52 AM
i take it with soy milk...tastes justs fine...and resolves the cassein problem with milk...
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2005/03/05, 08:55 AM
Thanks menace. but can any one show me one study that proves that cassein slows absorbtion of whey.
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2005/03/05, 09:15 AM
Milk 20% whey 80% cass: what does it do?
The whey portion of milk has a higher biological value than cass (it absorbs through the gut with the help of enzymes almost emeadiatly. it takes about 30 mins after consumtion for the amino acids to be available to the cells.
The cassein portion addhears to the sstomach wall and sustains the blood amino acid level on a time released basis
lactose in the milk reacts in the blood with the amino acids and causes an insuline responce heelping to shuttle the aminos to the cells. these actions are essential to support rapid growth of infants. Milk just containing cassein would not have the same effect the lactose would only be able to suply energy for a short period and the cassein would be inadequate on its own to supply the blood with amino acids as required. Hunger is trigard by the lo content of nutriants in the blood it would therefore take the cassein far too long to supply the blood on its own. so why after millions of years of evolution would whey be present in milk if it was blocked by cassein.
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2005/03/05, 09:18 AM
milk is the perfect supplyment for body building it just the processing by humans that spoils it.
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2005/03/05, 10:09 AM
Thats what I think anyway but I can't prove it.
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2005/03/05, 04:54 PM
Thats as i thought.
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2005/03/05, 05:31 PM
Posted by bb1 a while ago
Ok, I do not know where you are getting your information from, but it is not good info. It is mixed with some fact, but very short on real world practicalities. I could go into the milk thing in the first place, it is in no way the "perfect food", in fact far from it. A few tidbits..
The path that transforms healthy milk products into allergens and carcinogens begins with modern feeding methods that substitute high-protein, soy-based feeds for fresh green grass and breeding methods to produce cows with abnormally large pituitary glands so that they produce three times more milk than the old fashioned scrub cow. These cows need antibiotics to keep them well.
Their milk is then pasteurized so that all valuable enzymes are destroyed (lactase for the assimilation of lactose; galactase for the assimilation of galactose; phosphatase for the assimilation of calcium).
Literally dozens of other precious enzymes are destroyed in the pasteurization process. Without them, milk is very difficult to digest. The human pancreas is not always able to produce these enzymes; over-stress of the pancreas can lead to diabetes and other diseases.
The butterfat of commercial milk is homogenized, subjecting it to rancidity. Even worse, butterfat may be removed altogether. Skim milk is sold as a health food, but the truth is that butter-fat is in milk for a reason.
Without it the body cannot absorb and utilize the vitamins and minerals in the water fraction of the milk. Along with valuable trace minerals and short chain fatty acids, butterfat is America's best source of preformed vitamin A.
Synthetic vitamin D, known to be toxic to the liver, is added to replace the natural vitamin D complex in butterfat. Butterfat also contains re-arranged acids which have strong anti-carcinogenic properties.
The recent approval by the FDA of the use of BGH (Bovine Growth Hormone) by dairy farmers to increase their milk production only worsens the already sad picture.
BGH will also decrease the body fat of cows. Unfortunately, the body fat of cows is already contaminated with a wide range of carcinogens, pesticides, dioxin, and antibiotic residues. When the cows have less body fat, these toxic substances are then transported into the cows' milk.
So much for milk as the perfect food....now to address post workout...and notice the references
Adding milk is, in general, a bad idea. It will slow the absorption of amino acids in the gut during a period when you want a rapid increase in blood amino-acid levels. Milk protein is composed of two fractions, which are casein (accounting for approximately 80% of the protein in milk) and whey (which accounts for the remaining 20%) These have, respectively, been characterized as 'slow' and 'fast' proteins according to the rate at which they are digested and the speed at which amino-acids enter the bloodstream. (1) Whey results in a rapid, high spike in blood amino acid level which is highly anabolic, whereas casein results in a slow, steady increase in plasma amino-acid levels that is anti-catabolic in nature. (2) Mahe et al, who looked at the differences in digestion between casein and beta-lactoglobulin (which is the major subfraction in whey) found that casein clots in the acidic environment of the stomach, which delays gastric emptying, and results in a prolonged, steady released of amino-acids. (this is good any time but post workout). Whey, in contrast, remains soluble in the stomach, and quickly makes its way further down the digestive track resulting in the characteristic rapid peak in blood amino levels.
"While some have inferred from the research that by consuming both casein and whey together you'll get both the anti-catabolic effects of casein along with the anabolism of whey, this is unlikely. As a number of others(studies) have pointed out, it is more likely that since casein clots in the gut, and slows gastric emptying, you'll be slowing down the whey, causing it to act much like casein."
References
1. Fruhbeck G. Protein metabolism. Slow and fast dietary proteins. Nature. 391(6670):843, 845, 1998 Feb 26.
2. Mahe S. Roos N. Benamouzig R. Davin L. Luengo C. Gagnon L. Gausserges N. Rautureau J. Tome D. Gastrojejunal kinetics and the digestion of (15N)beta-lactoglobulin and casein in humans: the influence of the nature and quantity of the protein. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 63(4):546-52, 1996 Apr.
3. Tipton KD. Rasmussen BB. Miller SL. Wolf SE. Owens-Stovall SK. Petrini BE. Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. American Journal of Physiology - Endocrinology & Metabolism. 281(2):E197-206, 2001 Aug.
Mixing your post-workout protein shake with milk is not a bad idea per se, but at best it’s sub-par. One of the functions that insulin works is by translocation of GLUT4 (‘glucose transporter 4’) receptors to the cell membrane (1). GLUT4 is basically one of the glucose receptors (there are others) that allow glucose uptake in the cell.
As well, casein is the predominant protein that milk consists of (about 80% or so, with about 20% being whey). Casein actually forms clots in the stomach during digestion, forming a sort of paste that slows digestion further. Again, this is not something you’re striving for, so milk consumption during this time is not the obvious choice.
References:
(1) Need for GLUT4 activation to reach maximum effect of insulin-mediated glucose uptake in brown adipocytes isolated from GLUT4myc-expressing mice.
Diabetes. 2002 Sep;51(9):2719-26.
(2) Intracellular mechanisms underlying increases in glucose uptake in response to insulin or exercise in skeletal muscle.
Acta Physiol Scand. 2001 Mar;171(3):249-57
(3) The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.
Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.
(4) Post-ischemic stimulation of 2-deoxyglucose uptake in rat myocardium: role of translocation of Glut-4.
J Mol Cell Cardiol. 1998 Feb;30(2):393-403.
(5) Gastic emptying and intragastric distribution of lipids in man. A new scintigraphic method of study. Dig Dis Sci (1982) 27 (8): 705-711.
(6) In vivo and in vitro gastric emptying of milk replacers containing soybean proteins. J Dairy Sci. 1994 Feb;77(2):533-40.
****note the section with quotes around it.
*****One last note, and I am dropping the subject. I would be remiss in my duties as a mod if I did not supply the latest, best, most effective strategies available(backed up by countless scientific and real world applications). My premise here is to help folks, not argue with someone over what they want to do. You in fact are very free to do what you will post workout, I can only give advice. It personally does not matter to me what you do, all I can say is good luck and happy gains. It is time for me to move on. Apparently I could list hundreds of studies (which I could do), and you would still come back with something contrary. If you look hard enough out there for something to back up a theory you have, you can most likely find it. But it may not and probably is not correct. The science against your stance is vastly overwhelming.
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2005/03/05, 05:53 PM
As I said! although I still think milk is a good food.
And as well meening the post above is it doess't answer the question at the top of the thread.
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Quoting from ironmonga:
milk is the perfect supplyment for body building it just the processing by humans that spoils it.
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2005/03/06, 01:27 PM
So is there any real evidence that milk will slowdown the absorbtion of whey? Enough of you preach it.
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2005/03/06, 02:36 PM
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Quoting from newboy1:
So is there any real evidence that milk will slowdown the absorbtion of whey? Enough of you preach it.
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use your milk PWO! was the above post not enough? what do you want a 45 min. power point presentation?
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2005/03/06, 02:56 PM
I say use what you want!! :big_smile: Its your progress.
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Quoting from newboy1:
So is there any real evidence that milk will slowdown the absorbtion of whey? Enough of you preach it.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/06, 03:23 PM
I'm asking you because you tell people its best to use water I am just wondering if thats a theory or a fact and if it is a fact I would like to see the ref. The post from justine was a good anti milk case as a food but did not explain if or why milk acts against whey absorbtion. I'm not being argumentative I am just trying to get some relyable info.
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Quoting from bb1fit:
I say use what you want!! :big_smile: Its your progress.
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2005/03/06, 03:43 PM
First off cassein (found in milk) has a lesser value of nitrogen retention than whey.
If you were having your shake in the late evening it would be good to have with milk.
The cassein clumps when exposed to stomach acid, which will cause a slower release.
These facts have been reserches in Universities and confirmed in medical research centers from Shanxi medical College in China to Harvard University.
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Scales are for dead weight: We are not dead yet!
Still trying to find out how to do the Hollywood Free Press.
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
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2005/03/06, 04:10 PM
Thanks carivan I know that cassien is a slower releas protein than whey, that is not the question, the question is does the cass affect the absorbtion of the whey (also found in milk) I don't think it does I am just wondering if any one on here can back up there claims that it does. cos if it is proven then I will change to water. I just want to be sure. :)
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2005/03/06, 04:17 PM
Did you not read this part? I could dig up studies for you, but I don't feel like it. Reading the below should suffice. The references for the studies referred to are listed below. Choice is yours newboy.
Adding milk is, in general, a bad idea. It will slow the absorption of amino acids in the gut during a period when you want a rapid increase in blood amino-acid levels. Milk protein is composed of two fractions, which are casein (accounting for approximately 80% of the protein in milk) and whey (which accounts for the remaining 20%) These have, respectively, been characterized as 'slow' and 'fast' proteins according to the rate at which they are digested and the speed at which amino-acids enter the bloodstream. (1) Whey results in a rapid, high spike in blood amino acid level which is highly anabolic, whereas casein results in a slow, steady increase in plasma amino-acid levels that is anti-catabolic in nature. (2) Mahe et al, who looked at the differences in digestion between casein and beta-lactoglobulin (which is the major subfraction in whey) found that casein clots in the acidic environment of the stomach, which delays gastric emptying, and results in a prolonged, steady released of amino-acids. (this is good any time but post workout). Whey, in contrast, remains soluble in the stomach, and quickly makes its way further down the digestive track resulting in the characteristic rapid peak in blood amino levels.
"While some have inferred from the research that by consuming both casein and whey together you'll get both the anti-catabolic effects of casein along with the anabolism of whey, this is unlikely. As a number of others(studies) have pointed out, it is more likely that since casein clots in the gut, and slows gastric emptying, you'll be slowing down the whey, causing it to act much like casein."
References:
(1) Need for GLUT4 activation to reach maximum effect of insulin-mediated glucose uptake in brown adipocytes isolated from GLUT4myc-expressing mice.
Diabetes. 2002 Sep;51(9):2719-26.
(2) Intracellular mechanisms underlying increases in glucose uptake in response to insulin or exercise in skeletal muscle.
Acta Physiol Scand. 2001 Mar;171(3):249-57
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Quoting from newboy1:
I'm asking you because you tell people its best to use water I am just wondering if thats a theory or a fact and if it is a fact I would like to see the ref. The post from justine was a good anti milk case as a food but did not explain if or why milk acts against whey absorbtion. I'm not being argumentative I am just trying to get some relyable info.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/06, 05:28 PM
Thanks for that, it gives a good argument against postWO milk Thats all I wanted to know. calm down justin Your post did not answer my question the one above does (sort of) sorry to be a pain but I want to be sure if I'm going to make changes, thanks for your help.
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2005/03/06, 05:31 PM
The one above is from the one i posted, i guess you didn't read everything i posted.
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2005/03/06, 05:33 PM
if you guys want a very fast obsortion of whey going into your blood stream as fast as possible for an amazing form of energy ,mix the whey with 1 redline energy drink and 8 oz of water and drink 20 min b4 you work out or during your warm up b4 you excersize
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2005/03/06, 05:36 PM
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Quoting from dmorales:
if you guys want a very fast obsortion of whey going into your blood stream as fast as possible for an amazing form of energy ,mix the whey with 1 redline energy drink and 8 oz of water and drink 20 min b4 you work out or during your warm up b4 you excersize
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what are you talking about? before? if you want the best absorption of protein AFTER a workout mix your whey isolate with a mix of dextrose and malto! that'll spike you insulin levels and get those nutritents to your muscles and shut down cortisol.
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2005/03/06, 07:28 PM
sorry justine must have missed it. thanks:)
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2005/03/06, 07:29 PM
no problem, newboy1:cool:
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2005/03/06, 07:31 PM
Justin afterwards would be great aswell but also im talking as far as energy levls are concerned ..... must always take protein afetr a work out ,,, but i mean when your pooped form work ,, and drained from excessive daily activities
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2005/03/07, 07:04 PM
is it a big problem? i cant stand the taste of whey in water but its pretty good in milk
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2005/03/07, 07:14 PM
This discussion is referring to serious bodybuilding. Folks who train hard and "earn" a pwo shake. What is meant by that is not that someone else doesn't train hard, but not to bodybuilding standards by going into a catabolic state by doing their very best to tear their body down during a workout.
If you do not fit this category, then this discussion is not really relevant to you, anything you do will be helpful.
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Quoting from ianakers:
is it a big problem? i cant stand the taste of whey in water but its pretty good in milk
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/07, 07:55 PM
I use a shake flavourer called nesqick its got a high sugar content but very negligable fat so it fits in with the post WO MO and makes the shake taste good my personal fav is chocolate but you can get banana rasberry or stawberry.
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2005/03/07, 08:09 PM
you can use soy milk(natural, vanilla, chocolate), almond milk, or rice milk to substitute for water....most health foods have these...they each have their own unique tastes...so try them out maybe you'll like some of them...
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2005/03/07, 08:22 PM
I am not a fan of soy. :( too much conflicting info about estrogen activity for me. Besides, believe it not to be optimal for bodybuilding.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/07, 09:00 PM
is it a big problem? i cant stand the taste of whey in water but its pretty good in milk
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2005/03/07, 09:03 PM
if i dont like using water would skim milk help me and not slow down the intake of protein as much and 1% milk?
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2005/03/08, 01:15 AM
I ask you please to read these post before posting answers that are already answered
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Quoting from italian_boxer:
if i dont like using water would skim milk help me and not slow down the intake of protein as much and 1% milk?
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2005/03/08, 12:12 PM
I didn't think protein was the main nutrient that supressed cortisol levels I thought it was carbs that did it (Ivy and Portman "Nutrient Timing"). Also, just because some of us aren't bodybuilders does not mean that we cannot benefit from a pre workout shake and a post workout shake. I understand that bodybuilders do need optimum nutrients in that 45 minute window but there are plenty of studies that show an increase in muscle mass, strength and recovery with the use of a pre workout supplement.
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Quoting from mmaibohm:
The reason is the theory that milk can slow the absorbtion rate of whey protein. The protein in milk is cassein which forms for lack of a better term gel in the stomach. This blocks the ability of the whey to be absorbed. Whey is a very fast digesting protein and needs to get there quick so that the affects of cortisol can be counteracted.
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A word to the wise is not necessary, it is the stupid ones that need advice.
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2005/03/08, 02:41 PM
lexballer13 I am not a bodybuilder either. I never said there that a prework out shake is not needed. All I said was immediatley post work out use water to let the whey do it's thing and fight catabolism. And Also if you look at the part you qouted I said theory!!!!! But down in the supplements forum our good friend fitbuddy will help you find a post about protein mixed with mile post workout. Enjoy- Mike
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I am that
which must be feared, worshipped and adored. The world is mine
now and forever.No one holds command over me. No man. No god. I am ANIMAL! and that is enough.
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2005/03/08, 02:48 PM
will I am at it lex I did you home work for you. This is cut from a post by ron(bb1fit) if you want to take him on gor for it :big_smile:
http://www.freetrainers.com/FT/jsp/Message.jsp?f_ix=0&t_ix=4835
Add simple sugars to your post workout protein shake. This will enhance absrobtion, increase blood sugar, cause an insulin spike which negates cortisol. Insulin will then "push" the nutrients into your hungry muscles. This is also why you need a fast absorbing protein like whey isolate or an isolate/hydrolosate blend. No casien proteins. This is the only time you want to do this, but you need to do it to shut down cortisol. If the right protein and amino acids are not present post workout, protein synthesis simply will not take place. Your injested protein will go to energ restoration and glucose first and be wasted as far as muscle building goes. You want all metabolic pathways geared toward muscle growth at this opportune time. Those of you who add milk post workout are missing out on the most anabolic opportunity of the day, and totally missing the boat with your gains. And one other note of interest, sure makes your protein taste better!
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I am that
which must be feared, worshipped and adored. The world is mine
now and forever.No one holds command over me. No man. No god. I am ANIMAL! and that is enough.
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2005/03/08, 04:04 PM
I have a slight problem with that but all in all good info.
All I would add to that is that you must realise that protein once absorbed will flood through your veins doing its work but it wont hang around protein will only stay in your system for around 20-30 mins regardless of the size of your shake, after this your back to square one. As you didn't get any casein in the shake your blood amino acid level will plummet very rapidly after your shake. My advise here would to be take 2 post work out shakes, the second shake no more than 25 mins after the first or take your shake in two half’s Don’t ingest any thing other than protein and carbs during the first hour post workout. Any fat during this time will rob you of any success that your post workout feeding can offer.
Also the aim is not to block Cortisol but to satisfy it.
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2005/03/08, 04:25 PM
I already do this but I take shake 1 with water and shake 2 with skimmed milk, although I am still not sure about the cass whey conflict I dont like to take any chances.
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2005/03/08, 04:31 PM
well if you read other posts by ron and others you will see that this is covered as well the only thing we are discussing here is immediate PWO. the proper way is to chug half immediately then sip the other have for about 45 min. to an hour then 45 minutes later have a balanced meal consisting of WHOLE FOODS not shakes with a lean protein source complex carbs and some fibrous green veggies such as broccli and maybe a little fish oil! this is because liquids are digested quite rapidly within 45 min. to an hour after your shake.
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Quoting from hi_there123:
I have a slight problem with that but all in all good info.
All I would add to that is that you must realise that protein once absorbed will flood through your veins doing its work but it wont hang around protein will only stay in your system for around 20-30 mins regardless of the size of your shake, after this your back to square one. As you didn't get any casein in the shake your blood amino acid level will plummet very rapidly after your shake. My advise here would to be take 2 post work out shakes, the second shake no more than 25 mins after the first or take your shake in two half’s Don’t ingest any thing other than protein and carbs during the first hour post workout. Any fat during this time will rob you of any success that your post workout feeding can offer.
Also the aim is not to block Cortisol but to satisfy it.
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2005/03/08, 04:42 PM
Justin why do you keep dragging up old posts?. Do you expect us newbies to read every past thread before entering the descution. OK so these topics may have been coverd in the past but it is could to refresh over thes things this is where new knowledge gets pushed around. If your tierd of reading it then don't get involved. please stop pasting old snippets of past posts by bb1fit. This is a fresh topic to us and I for one am enjoying picking up bits of info from other posters and adding my own.
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2005/03/08, 04:44 PM
Not wishing to be pedantic, but when protein is in your veins it won't do any work other than returning to your heart. It's the protein from your arteries, then ultimately your capillaries which will be of use.
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Quoting from hi_there123:
All I would add to that is that you must realise that protein once absorbed will flood through your veins doing its work
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2005/03/08, 04:52 PM
Why should we continue to repeat ourselves when we can tell you where to look? I'm not doing anything wrong I'm being helpful and if you don't feel that way too bad, cause i don't care. I bring up old posts by bb1 because it answered the question in this thread that had been discussed BEFORE! And when someone new comes along and says they have a problem with info given by the most knowledgable person on this board, yeah i have a problem with that and i will correct them. If you read these boards and the little stickies we have to help newbie such as yourself you will find that most of your questions can be answered by doing a search and then if you still can't find your answer then post your question. But to post redundant questions that have been answered before is annoying and we will tell you to search for it.:angry:
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2005/03/08, 04:53 PM
Thank you so much for correcting me but I would credit most of the readers here with the wisdom to understand what I was refering to. Since your so up on your bio chemestry why dont you add a comment that may be of use to people.
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2005/03/08, 04:59 PM
There's your first mistake making the assumption that EVERYBODY knows what you mean. I was just helping to clarify thats all.
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2005/03/08, 05:07 PM
Take a chill pill JustinE22! New information on this topic comes to light all the time. I am not dissputing the integrety of bb1fits knowledge but the posts you quote are old and may well be accurate, but this is a descution board and I am haveing a descution. if I want to read up stuff I will, I can do that in a book but at the moment I am chosing to descuss it. this has been a very constructive thread so far (well up till now) who asked you to be bb1s spokesman anyway, I'm surer he can speek for himself. any how thanks for your help JustinE22 but I can do with it.
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2005/03/08, 05:22 PM
Ok, now everyone back in there respective corners.
hi_there123 ...... princess lodgey was trying to be helpful and I guarantee you she was not being sarcastic like you were!
ironmonga and Justin continue your debate with the mail feature here. This is going no where and I will delete any future posts that are personal in nature.
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Scales are for dead weight: We are not dead yet!
Still trying to find out how to do the Hollywood Free Press.
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
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2005/03/08, 06:32 PM
So by reading this thread(lots have happened in a few hours since I have been on), what exactly is the question? Or being questioned?
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/03/08, 07:27 PM
I think its been established now that way and water Post WO is the way to go as you have pointed out before, but its nice to chew these things over now and then. but I think justin thought we was dissing you or somthing.
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2005/03/08, 07:37 PM
The original question was why is whey in milk if casein blocks it, and does any body know of a study that clearly states that as a fact. That is not to say I am questioning any bodys advis.
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