Group: Strength & Powerlifting

Created: 2012/01/01, Members: 39, Messages: 16459

Discuss the topic of Power lifting, Strength training and Strong Man training!

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squats

foz1988
foz1988
Posts: 85
Joined: 2003/12/16
United States
2004/11/03, 03:01 PM
can i do squats and box aquats on the same day. or would it be stupid to
arondaballer
arondaballer
Posts: 1,054
Joined: 2003/06/14
United States
2004/11/03, 07:20 PM
Most powerlifters (from what I know) have a dynamic day, and a max effort day each week. The box squats are worked on mostly on dynamic day with not as heavy of weight. I know Gator does his to build up the fast twitch to get out of the "hole." Read the Box Squats with Bands post on this forum.

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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt

2004/11/03, 09:19 PM
foz, although aaron gives a valid point, u can try to do it and see if it works for u....I combine the 2 ways, I do dynamic first, and then I do some strength training...The dynamic training serves to preexhaust the muscles and so I use less weight for strength training part....Also I use wide stance for dynamic effort...but use narrow stance for regular squats...so this way I hit different parts of the leg...namely quads, hamstrings, butt, and hips...see if it works for u... i tried a combination of both on tuesday and can barely walk today on wednsday...heh...so experiment
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/11/04, 01:35 PM
try 3 sets of regular squats followed by 3 sets box squats



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GO into battle as if was your last, cause thats the only one you loose!
gatormade
gatormade
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Joined: 2003/10/01
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2004/11/04, 01:47 PM
I never do box squats and regular squats on the same day. I do my max effort squat day 72 hours after my dynamic 50% box squat day and my squat continues to get better and better. Also, if you are fatigued before doing strength work then you will not get as strong as fast. You need to be fresh when you perform your first strength exercise of the workout. Menace, that might also explain why your squat isn't where it should be.
bigandrew
bigandrew
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Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/11/04, 01:51 PM
hey gator, it possible to do that kinda workout with a 3 day split?

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GO into battle as if was your last, cause thats the only one you loose!
rev8ball
rev8ball
Posts: 3,081
Joined: 2001/12/27
United States
2004/11/04, 01:59 PM
I agree with gator. Pre-exhaust is not what we're trying to do here; in order to gain strength, you MUST allow time for your body to recuperate.

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Michael

Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!

rev8ball@freetrainers.com
2004/11/04, 04:21 PM
I disagree because, when you preexhaust your muscles, you are still working to your max potential, it's just that instead of squatting 400 for 10 reps, you will only do 300, but those 10 reps will still be your max, and your muscles won't be able to differentiate. When you're pre-exhausted your muscles associate the 300 as tough as 400 when you're fresh.

On the sidenote, the reason my squat is comparatively weak is because I am lazy( and i choose to play basketball on certain days rather than squat)..heh...so I only train legs about once every 2-3 weeks. And also because I don't incorporate as much max effort as I do in other lifts, because I never have a competent spotter present( the 5 dollar gym attendants where i work out, sometimes have frail young girls, who can't even spot bench press properly....not to mention squats)...I also almost never see any1 squat at my school gym, or if they do, they often do 'quarter repping'.... In one of the gyms i train most frequently, there's no real power rack to catch the weight, so I rely on other less effective techniques, and often can't even max out when i already pre-exhausted the muscles....also recuperation/rest is not really an issue for me, because I get plenty of both between sets and workouts...pre-exhaustion for me serves merely to warm up the primary bodypart being worked, and decrease the overall weight being used...(lol@time I got stuck with 315 on my shoulders sitting on the box..i was asking for help, for about a good half a minute, then finally a random guy came up and was taking another minute or so to figure out how to help me up...eh...part of the reason for my training heh)....
rev8ball
rev8ball
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Joined: 2001/12/27
United States
2004/11/04, 04:43 PM
The problem with doing both dynamics and max effort on the same day is not pre-exhaustion. It's trying to maximize the effetivness of both slow and fast twitch fibers at the same time. It's like having a high-end horses in a mud bog race vs low end torque in a drag race..... it's just not pratical.

And I HATE getting stuck with the weight on my back! :big_smile:

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Michael

Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!

rev8ball@freetrainers.com
nellyboy
nellyboy
Posts: 209
Joined: 2004/07/09
United States
2004/11/04, 04:45 PM
gatormade has it right menace, when you "pre-exhaust" the muscles responsible for the squat pattern, you predispose yourself to injury and detraining of strength.

unfortunately your body does know the difference between 300 and 400 pounds, because if it didn't you'd be able to lift them both with the same effort. the more load you place on your body, the more your central nervous system has to step up its many processes involved in motor unit activation/recruitment. if the load is less than your 1RM, your body progressively lowers the amount of activation for energy conservation purposes. it's like racing a dodge viper against a kia sephia (yes that's what i own!), it's not necessary to have that much power for what is needed.

menace when you say
"when you preexhaust your muscles, you are still working to your max potential, it's just that instead of squatting 400 for 10 reps, you will only do 300, but those 10 reps will still be your max, and your muscles won't be able to differentiate"
you need to understand that when your muscles are "pre-exhuasted," the maximum strength potential is lost and volume/hypertrophy training will be induced. this is due to your bodies energy systems and their limitations. there's only so much maximum strength potential that is available to you in any given workout session. without adequate rest of not only your muscular system, but your central nervous system as well (among others), you will not be able to keep the load high enough to develop maximum strength and in most cases maintain current levels of strength and hypertrophy will set in.

hopefully this helps,
dave

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All of the information I present is not my own...many before me have paved the road to teaching ultimate health and vitality. special thanks to paul chek and the chek institute.
foz1988
foz1988
Posts: 85
Joined: 2003/12/16
United States
2004/11/04, 04:56 PM
k so wha u r saying is i shoulnt do them on the smae day.should i alternate with leg days like 1 week do legs withsquats n the other do box squats
nellyboy
nellyboy
Posts: 209
Joined: 2004/07/09
United States
2004/11/04, 05:03 PM
it just all depends on what your goals are. if you're trying to induce growth, then you should squat first since it's the most neurologically demanding, then go to the box squat for your second exercise. if you're trying to develop maximum strength for a particular training cycle, then stick to one or the other (my preference is the regular back squat instead of the box squat). this is because when you're training for max strength, fewer exercises is best.
gatormade
gatormade
Posts: 1,355
Joined: 2003/10/01
United States
2004/11/04, 06:17 PM
You can disagree all that you want but the proof is in the pudding. Pre-exhaustion is a bodybuilding technique used to add mass. If you want to get truely strong then you need to be fresh. I know I am right on this because of what I have felt, seen, and read about the subject at hand.
gatormade
gatormade
Posts: 1,355
Joined: 2003/10/01
United States
2004/11/04, 06:21 PM


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Quoting from menace3000:

On the sidenote, the reason my squat is comparatively weak is because I am lazy( and i choose to play basketball on certain days rather than squat)..heh...so I only train legs about once every 2-3 weeks. And also because I don't incorporate as much max effort as I do in other lifts, because I never have a competent spotter present( the 5 dollar gym attendants where i work out, sometimes have frail young girls, who can't even spot bench press properly....not to mention squats)...I also almost never see any1 squat at my school gym, or if they do, they often do 'quarter repping'.... In one of the gyms i train most frequently, there's no real power rack to catch the weight, so I rely on other less effective techniques, and often can't even max out when i already pre-exhausted the muscles....also recuperation/rest is not really an issue for me, because I get plenty of both between sets and workouts...pre-exhaustion for me serves merely to warm up the primary bodypart being worked, and decrease the overall weight being used...(lol@time I got stuck with 315 on my shoulders sitting on the box..i was asking for help, for about a good half a minute, then finally a random guy came up and was taking another minute or so to figure out how to help me up...eh...part of the reason for my training heh)....
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Sounds like a poor excuse for not squatting heavy. Also, I have been thinking about this for a while now and I absolutely do not believe that you deadlift 675. Your squat would be alot higher if you were. So, I am calling you out on this. Even when my back and hip were recovering and my deadlift was bigger than my squat I was still within 100 lbs of my deadlift.
7707mutt
7707mutt
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 2002/06/18
United States
2004/11/04, 06:45 PM
:big_smile:

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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!

7707mutt@freetrainers.com
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/11/04, 08:09 PM
but he uses straps! :big_smile::surprised:
2004/11/05, 01:35 AM
sigh..well...i guess u're entitled to your opinion gator...but what's even more interesting is that I did 675 more like a stiff legged deadlift..than the standard form...and as andrew pointed out I rely on straps, otherwise I could prolly do only around 600...The big disparity arose from the different styles of training I used...Because squats were more difficult for me, with no spotters, or what not, I used more bodybuilding training principles....on deadlifts on the other hand...I did powerlifting training, often doign 1 rep max as my 2nd set of a workout about once a month, maybe once every 5 weeks with my weird training...I usually did 2-3 working sets of deadlifts, resting 10-15 minutes between sets(that's right I trained my back once every 2-3 weeks with maybe 10-12 sets total...and I got up to 675...reason my buddies suspect I am juicing...)...Also I occassionally supplement my deadlift with lower back machine...which I only have in 1 of the gyms...Last time with speed training for deadlifts, I did 200lb stack , 40 times, after 13 sets of deadlifts....i have weird training what can I say...alright alright, I only deadlift 75....i mistyped and added a 6 in the front :/
2004/11/05, 01:38 AM
at one point I was benching more than I could squat...now think about that...then u will really believe the last part...
2004/11/05, 01:45 AM
perhaps you guys are right in terms of max effort training...and squats...however, I cannot use the weight needed to train for max effort safely...so it's a mute point for me...I will have to switch to a more hardcore gym...and there are a couple of those where I live and with limited hours...But i do appreciate the correction...
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/11/05, 12:50 PM
I do heavy squats without a spotter.....thats what the rack is for buddy, can't do it, let it go.

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GO into battle as if was your last, cause thats the only one you loose!
2004/11/05, 05:20 PM
huh?..let what go?...if you're joining gator in your assumption...well go right ahead...but I don't make up numbers to please my ego or impress others. I say what I do, or have done. I don't take pride in making up huge numbers simply to impress others...Sorry to break it to u...If 675 seems unbelievable at 205lb...well believe it...yes I use straps...but I admitted it already X times...beyond this the argument is over...
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/11/06, 08:35 PM
I was refering to squats........you say you don't go heavy caus eyou don't have a spotter.......thats whay a squat rack, has a safty bar around it, if you can get it......drop down let the safty supports get it.


And actually you like to brag , many posts you have answered, you always tell us what your idea( which is fine) but then you fill us in on your intire workout plus poundages you "use"

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GO into battle as if was your last, cause thats the only one you loose!
2004/11/07, 12:19 AM
take this thread for example...I only used actual numbers, when gator and u andrew brought up my deadlift...I stated my opinion without referring to my workouts or poundages or anything...I think I only state them when people get on me by calling me a lier or when there's a thread that actually asks for numbers...or if it's important to something...If i used it beyond that...I apologize...I am proud of my lifts...but u are right...I'll be more cognizant in terms of mentioning it for no reason...
2004/11/07, 12:27 AM
and andrew my rack at school gym sucks...it's not a cage type ...which i have in one of my gyms, and I do go heavier when I am there...I tried my max lift their a month ago..but I go to my school gym much more often now for convenience purposes...and I did get stuck there before, and no u can't jsut drop the bar...i don't wanna blow out my knees...which i almost did a while ago when I stubmled ackwardly under the weight...I can't just take the bar and throw it backwards...in the other gym I just sit down witht he weight...and if I can't get up then rack which is liek an inch below catches it....at the school gym the rack is too low...so u have to squat down even more for it to catch the weight...and I am not that flexible...so it's not effective for me...
Firehawk734
Firehawk734
Posts: 295
Joined: 2002/07/31
United States
2004/11/07, 10:51 PM
Ill say it here like I said it in the other thread, you have to expect skepticism since your deadlift is ridiculously high for your age and size. Second, you aren't even using a conventional or sumo style deadlift technique. you are using more of a good morning or straight leg deadlift technique, which makes it even more unbelievable.

Then, you post a picture, but you post a picture of you holding on to the bar with 675 loaded or whatever it was, but sitting on the ground! I want to see a video, or several pictures of you in the midst of the lift, with no supports, nobody helping, no nothing.

It doesnt obligate you to prove anything to me, but I'd just love to see it to be honest.

Also, I'd love to see you curl 65 lb dumbbells for 10 or whatever you said you can do....would need a video for that though ;)>
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/11/07, 11:51 PM
the way i calculated it, there was 655 on that bar in the picture . 12 45s and 2 35s. regardless of what it was, you have a point with that whole "not being off the ground" thing.

i'm not making any insinuations about the legitimacy of these numbers, but you can't blame people for questioning it when 90% of your posts are either telling what your numbers are or giving questionable advice about lifting form. i believe i've said this to you in so many words before: people will be more likely to believe what you're saying if you let them get to know you a little before you repeatedly start telling them how much you lift.

i don't see any reason for you to make up your numbers, but you have to admit they are a little staggering. if i were you i think i'd try being a little less defensive and a little more humble - people would probably question you less.

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i wish you ill, ice-t.

margarine is a liar who announces, "i am butter!"
2004/11/08, 04:38 AM
yes kat as I stated in another forum where i posted this pic it's 655 and it was done around 3 months ago...

I stated numbers a while ago when I saw others state theirs...if results are impressive for you guys so be it...I don't think I need to go to some great measures to prove myself....

The technique I use for deadlifts is conventional for me...because I can't even get down that low for 'normal' deadlift...Using this method I rely more on my back than hips...it works for me....sometimes I use shoulder width, or maybe a little narrower, sometimes as the picture showed about 6 inches apart...whatever I feel comfortable with on a particular day...I train by feel...ie what works for me on a particular day..etc...My friend started using my technique and is making impressive gains, 2-3 months ago he did 450(he started at 225 for like 8 reps) at 5'10 185lb after deadlifting for about 4-6 months( he was at first hesitant to do deadlifts but then he noticed great improvements in his golf game :20-30 yards..so he stuck with it)...He uses similar form, only keeps his feet about shoulder width...he like me does not get way down where butt touches ankles/calves as I seen a couple trainers do...and as mutt suggested is the 'proper' form...

I don't understand why I need to hide my numbers to 'appear' humble...I don't try to mention it needlessly in every post...but I also don't know why I should be scared to mention them if a post warrants it...I seen gator post his workouts...and yes he uses some big numbers too...that only serves to give me an example of other workouts and motivate me...and see how I stack up with others...

WHen i'll have an opportunity to get a pic taken I'll do it...but I am not gonna stress over this to prove myself...
rev8ball
rev8ball
Posts: 3,081
Joined: 2001/12/27
United States
2004/11/08, 11:43 AM
Why don't we agree to disagree on this topic, and move on....

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Michael

Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!

rev8ball@freetrainers.com