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2004/01/29, 05:47 PM
I was wandering if would be better to combine muscle groups that are in the same area in the same day (e.g. shoulders and biceps) or would it be better to combine muscle groups that are not (e.g. biceps and calves)?
Thanks!
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2004/01/29, 08:27 PM
its really up to you...everyone has a differnt rutine...you just need to find out what works for you
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2004/01/30, 11:28 AM
when I was in high school are 1st splits concisted of....."push" excercises and " pull" excercises and legs, I'll explain..
"PUSH" are excercises where you push the weight away from you.......triceps, shoulders (traps excluded)and chest
"PULL" days where back , biceps, traps ( cleans where done on this day)
legs.......do I need to explain? lol
however my advice would be to do one "MAIN" lift
chest day....bench press, inclines, declines ( although don't do all in one day switch it up)
shoulders....military behind the neck, dumbell, or barbell
back.....deadlifts....the best excercise as is also rows of anykind
legs....squats or leg presses
the other excerces you can fill in for your goals( isolation excercises)
anything can be pared together and worked......my only exception is legs and other body parts, due to the fact that the quads, butt and hams are very large muscles and take alot of blood to operate them so I try and do these by themselves
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!!
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2004/01/30, 05:45 PM
this is just me but i like to do chest and bi's on 1 day, tri's and shoulders on the next and back and legs on the 3rd day. i've heard that combining your biceps w/ ur back is good because on the lat pulldowns (if you do those) ur biceps is used as a secondary muscle. just my 2cents
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2004/01/30, 06:17 PM
Here are a few things you should consider:
1) You should not work 2 large, upper body muscle groups on the same day.
2) Some muscle groups can be pre-fatigued if worked together (i.e. back/bi, chest/tri).
3) Work your weaker muscle groups first; strongest last.
4) Do not work on upper body muscles for more than 3 consecutive days...they need time to rest and grow.
Hope this helps...
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2004/01/30, 07:51 PM
So you think this is OK then:
Monday
Back
Shoulders
Tuesday
Chest
Biceps
Friday
Triceps
Saturday
Thighs
Calves
I also do abs on each of these days.
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Quoting from rpacheco:
Here are a few things you should consider:
1) You should not work 2 large, upper body muscle groups on the same day.
2) Some muscle groups can be pre-fatigued if worked together (i.e. back/bi, chest/tri).
3) Work your weaker muscle groups first; strongest last.
4) Do not work on upper body muscles for more than 3 consecutive days...they need time to rest and grow.
Hope this helps...
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2004/01/31, 08:31 AM
You should really vary your exercises. Like biceps calves triceps shoulders. Don't go off doing bicep and triceps cause i wouldn't think that would be the best idea>>
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2004/01/31, 08:46 AM
Hey dlucic how are you today? How long have you been bodybuilding? How old are you?
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2004/02/03, 04:33 PM
i'd split back and shoulders up a lil bit..........those are " big muscles" in my opinion..........if you wanan do what called "back to back training" hwere you work opposite muscle groups together.....example back/ chest
tris/ bis.............there are good to group together cause when I do this it saves time and gives a really good pump.............this woul dbe like doing t bar rows then doing bench press, then going back to t bar rows etc.............. unlike many peopl I like to work body parts that have nothing to do with each other together
legs/ tris
chest /back
shoulders/ biceps
this way yoru actually working that muscle another day because its a secandary muscle group.......example......on chest day/ back day your biceps and triceps work to help you perfrom those lifts.........but the days you actually work those muscles they get worked again as " main" muscles......so your not working them 2 times a week....kinda 1.5 times a week lol.............................as for doing 2 compund lifts in one day.....you can do that just cut back on the other sets.......if I only have one day to work out a week I do flys, cleans, military press, 1 excercise for triceps and biceps then I do deadlifts......this way my whole body gets worked either by secondarly or by actually working that muscle group, many powerlifting programs have you do 1 or 2 coumpound lifts and subtract the " isoloation excercises"
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!!
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2004/02/03, 04:51 PM
Here's a 4-day split you might consider:
Day 1 - Back/biceps
Day 2 - Chest/triceps
Day 3 - Legs/calves
Day 4 - Shoulders/forearms
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2004/02/03, 04:56 PM
i liek that split i used to do it my self a while back....however if you do chest 1st, then your triceps might be a lil tired from banch pressing, and if you do triceps 1st then your bench will suffer, same with doing biceps before back............just a thought
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!!
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2004/02/03, 05:04 PM
Bigandrew, always work on larger muscles first. This pre-fatigues the smaller ones, like bis and tris. If you work on the larger muscles correctly, the smaller ones will benefit. The problem, when you really think of it, is due to form. If the form is incorrect, your smaller muscles feel more worked than the larger ones.
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2004/02/03, 05:08 PM
my form is fine, actually I changed my "form" a while back, however no matter how you bench your tricpes arestill gonna be ingaged
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!!
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2004/02/03, 05:12 PM
Well, yes...but you can limit their work. For example, the closer your hands are on the barbell, the more emphasis on your triceps; the farther they are, more emphasis on your chest and pecs.
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2004/02/03, 07:37 PM
yes I said and true however I don't want either muscle group to be hampered by the other one, which is why I split them up like this...........comes down to preferance and what your wanting to do
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!!
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2004/02/06, 02:12 AM
here's my split.
monday: back, calves.
tuesday: chest, abs.
wednesday: legs.
thursday: shoulders, abs.
friday: biceps, triceps, calves.
This split normally isn't 5 days in a row, but that all depends on how I feel (ie. I tend to take thursday off and go on saturday to make up for it because I'm wiped from the 3 workouts).
Throw in some good cardio a few times in that week and I'm all set.
The thing I really like about this split is that each body part is usually very fresh and I can work them really hard.
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2006/02/03, 03:54 PM
here's my split..monday----chest/triceps/traps/abs
tuesday---legs/abs
wednesday--run 1 mile
thursday---back/biceps/delts/abs
friday---whatever i did monday
all my excersises are 3x6, except for legs, 3x10. For squats i do 225 3x10 and i'm not ever doin more, just more reps, cause im just trying to get bigger, not destroy my knees for later in life.It's actually a 3 day workout, but what i do is rotate everything up one day the following week, so every week there will be bodyparts getting worked out twice a week. I also run a half mile every day on the treadmill to warm up. I'm trying to bulk up over the winter, which is why I'm only running 1 mile a week. closer to the summer I usually run 1 mile, three times a week. Let me know what ya think I'm 21 years old, 5'9"-170lbs, I read mens fitness alot which is where i get most of my ideas, and im always lookin to here some comments, so get back to me, thanks chilen247@aol.com
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2006/02/03, 04:15 PM
you realize this post is 2 years old right?
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2006/02/03, 06:40 PM
-post is 2 years old
-doing same reps/sets gets you to plateau pretty fast as your body adapts to this quickly
-generally it's best to try to train all bodyparts with similar reps..
-doing squats with more weight is not going to destroy your knees if you're doing them correctly...this is an ever ongoing myth.....doing more and more reps will just build endurance in your legs....it won't do much for size or strength....
- I would also focus more on big exercises/movement patterns rather than bodyparts....body part splits are slowly becoming an outdated approach to train, popularized by bodybuilders.....might be fine if you're a bodybuilder, but if you're a regular guy trying to put on overall size and strength , it's best to focus on exercises/movements ....(all with freeweights)squats, deadlifts, pull ups, dips, bench press, etc....rather than bodyparts....when you're doing bicep curls, your abs/back/core do more work...so is that really a bicep exercise?
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2006/02/07, 05:01 PM
This has been an ongoing delima to me. Whether or not to train biceps on the same day as back for example. Also whether or not to train triceps on the same day as chest.
From what I can tell there are two schools of thought here. To pre-fatigue or not to pre-fatigue.... that is the question! lol. Ok :( anyway....
If I did do a couple of tricep isolations on the same day as chest, will this hamper overall tricep development, or help it. And if I did choose this method, would it be okay to do the same routine twice a week?
Or would it be better to do bench, and then later in the week isolate the triceps? Same question with back/biceps.
Also, from what BA said, I take it that I shouldn't be doing bench press, incline bench, decline bench and butterflies on the same day. Is that right?. If so, would just bench press and butterflies on one day of the week and then say incline and decline on another day of the week be ok?
Thanks to anyone who can clear this up for me.:surprised:
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2006/02/07, 09:51 PM
Re-read menace's last post.
It's easier and more effective for most individuals if you seperate by movement patterns or upper/lower. I am a fan of upper/lower, as I feel it is just the right frequency for many people. I personally do tbt and love it. I seperate my upper body lifts by movement patterns, and train total body 3 times a week.
Training with an bodypart split can often by like comparing training isolation movements with compound movements,
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/08, 05:08 PM
I just want to make sure I'm undserstanding this correctly.
So you are saying no tricep or bicep isolations, and instead focus on compound exercises like chin ups and bench press, just to name a couple.
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2006/02/08, 05:11 PM
I just want to make sure I'm undserstanding this correctly.
So you are saying no tricep or bicep isolations, and instead focus on compound exercises like chin ups and bench press, just to name a couple.
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2006/02/08, 08:54 PM
Yes. I am saying you will get a better stimulus from doing 5*5 with chin ups than you will with 5*5 for curls. Much better in fact.
Very few people need direct arm work. Instead, they need total body work, and to strengthen the supporting musculature.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/08, 09:44 PM
I see. Very interesting. I will definatly try this.
But what if (a frog had wings), I did a couple of sets of preacher curls, say 8 each, with the last set failing at 7?
Would this hamper the effect?
Thanks wrestler, you seem to always "be here".
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2006/02/08, 09:57 PM
Not sure what you mean? Are you saying you are worried about isolation work hampering your goals? Not really, unless it was pushing you towards overtraining.
However, put more emphasis your compound movements. More effort, do them earlier in your workout, they should be the focus of 80% of your workout.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/08, 10:05 PM
They already are 80%. Just wanted to make sure this would not, as I said, hamper things.
I usually follow up, for ex, bench with some tri iso. And Back with some bicep iso.
When I say follow up, I'm speaking of 2 iso exercises.
We may be crossing wires here, but I gathered that, from a couple of the posts in this thread, Isolation is becoming obsolete.
I guess that was my question. LOL, I tend to complicate things. :)
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2006/02/08, 10:21 PM
This might make it easier.
I have available to me:
Bench, decline and incline
Butterfly, incline and decline
Tricep pull down
French press
Kick backs
Preacher curls
Iso curls
Standing curls
hammer curls
With this availability, what would you suggest?
Please exclude any that you want, as I trust your opinion.
Include sets, reps, when I should fail, ect.
Also how often.
Sometimes the whole split mumbo jumbo confuses me. I know it is probably a simple concept but......:(
You may remember me. I bought the Weider Cable machine.
I know... I know don't say it. lol
But I have a total capacity of 340..... supposedly. But I worked out with 230 pounds of the rods the first day....4 sets of 8.
I will include leg availability shortly.
Thanks again man
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2006/02/08, 10:37 PM
Also multiple back and shoulder stuff.
Lat pull downs, chin ups, seated rows, bent over rows.
Military press, side and front standing raises, cross cables (reverse butterflies), shrugs.
Thanks again!
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2006/02/08, 10:40 PM
Compound movements will always yeild more overall results than any isolation type stuff.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/02/08, 11:15 PM
I understand this.
Will Iso in the same routine afterwords help or hamper?!?! :angry:
Sorry. lol. Thank you for your advice fit. Anytime you take the time to respond to one of my ?'s I feel very appreciative!:)
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2006/02/08, 11:16 PM
Am I making this too complicated? :(
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2006/02/09, 12:13 AM
What kind of training split are you doing. I will assume for now that it is upper/lower.
So on your upper body day, start with your main goal. I will say upper back development (as this is an area most trainee's neglect). You want to start with some form of compound pulling motion, lets say rows or chin ups. Then a compound pressing movement, like bench press or overhead work. Then move onto other movements, and save the isolation movements for the end of your workout. Your workout should not go over 1 hour. If it does, this would be an instance of isolation work hampering things, and it means you should cut out some volume, and iso work should be the first to go out.
Sets reps etc will be dependent on your goals.
For the record, I train total body, so 2 isolation moves is 2 more than I ever do. But I am confident that I could outperform any of my "curl and fly" friends, on any exercise of their choosing.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/09, 04:39 AM
I like TBT, and for the most part I don't like to double dip on the same muscle groups....I generally don't like isolation lifts...the body doesn't work that way and unless you're a bodybuilder working on a specific muscle weaknesses, you can generally avoid it altogether...
so
Squats
Rows
Military Presses
or
Deadlifts
Bench Press
Box Squats
I heard one of the funniest things today...2 girls are walking down the stairs on the way to the gym and one says to the other 'so do you want to train abs or would you rather go lift weights?'....my guess neither has done heavy deadlifts, squats, pull ups, dips, etc....
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2006/02/09, 04:55 AM
brandon there's no additional benefit of doing isolation movements afterwards....if you can do supersets, dropsets, or more sets with iso movements, then why not just use heavier sets on compound movements? or use higher volume on those compound movements?...generally I don't like doing iso before compounds because they rob you of strength..so that you generally need a good reason for doing it....(e.g. one of the muscles is overdeveloped and you want to devote more time at training the stabilizers or other synergists, etc..)
should have gotten a used rack, weights, barbells etc, over the weider machine...
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2006/02/09, 09:48 PM
I see. Thanks alot guys.
Yeah menace, I know. I'm already kicking myself for buying the Weider Machine. Even though it allows free range of motion, I guess I should have bought free weights.:(
It will have to do for now though. Do you guys think I will just be spinning my wheels with this thing? It offers 65 exercises, and as I said, I have 340 lbs of resistance on it.
Thanks again for all of the advice.
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2006/02/09, 10:00 PM
Damn I suck!
Just bought a new house. Have a new SUV payment of 400$ a month. Both my wife's and my paychecks are gone before we get them. And what do I do? I decide to throw 600+ bucks away on a freakin cable machine! And what's ad is the fact that I knew free weights were better. The convenience of the machine just sucked me in though.
Smooth move.... real freakin smooth.
Sorry, I just had to get that out.
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2006/02/09, 10:25 PM
take it back!
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/02/10, 07:13 AM
Yeah, I thought about that. I bought it on the internet, and there is a 6 week trial on it.
Though I'd have to take it apart, pack it up and ship it back... it would probably be worth it. I may just do that.
I could get everything I need as far as free weights with the 600$ refund couldn't I?
Thanks.
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2006/02/10, 07:19 AM
Even if the total freeweight equipment will cost more, it's something that will give you much better results and there's no real limitation in terms of weight...
I would get
-Rack with safety bars and adjustable pins every 2-3 inches and rated for at least 1000lb
-barbell rated for over 1000lb
-2 adjsustable Dumbells with at least 100lb capability
-weight plates
-adjustable bench(incline, decline, flat)
I would look for used equipment, especially for rack and weight plates/barbell/DB
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2006/02/10, 12:23 PM
A younger powerlifter once asked Shawn Lattimer (Metal Militia) why he doesn't do push downs or overhead extensions after his workout to work his triceps.
Shawn's reply: "What do you think pushdowns will do for me that a 700lb board press hasn't already?"
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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