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2002/11/22, 08:37 PM
Ok...This is probably going to raise a few eyebrows, but I would like to throw out an opinion and open it for discussion from all views. The cardio and fat burning issue..hhhmmm..over and over the issue of how much cardio to do, what type of cardio to do, should we supplement or not, before or after. All valid concerns. My thoughts toward cardio have really changed, though deep down I have kind of felt this way for quite a long time, but kind of follow the herd mentality had me going against it. Is cardio really a very efficient fat burner? My opinion is no, and some reasons why. I have trained people, and watched people, and have belonged to gyms for many years. Now I have seen lots of "cardio freaks", and these are just people who swear by it I guess, that do hard cardio on an almost daily basis, some for an hour or more at a time. Others with the new HIIT cardio. The funny thing is, those people don't seem to change. Now I know, first thought is well, they don't change their diet. Bingo! The diet is what does it. the fat burning effects of the cardio have to be negligible at best. Think about this, even if one doesn't change their diet, and you get such great fat burning effects even from an intense form of cardio like HIIT, wouldn't you eventually see a weight loss? Again, this leads to what actually does the fat burning, resistance training building muscle, which stokes your metabolism, and DIET! When you change your diet, again, bingo, your physique will start to change. Otherwise, no matter how much cardio you do, you will not change. The effects of cardio will more than likely break down muacle tissue for amino acids for repllenishment. Now, don't get me wrong, cardio is a necessary form of exercise for cardiovascular health, ask anyone who has had a heart attack. But for fat burning? There was a thing a while back that it took at least 20 minutes of cardio to even attempt to start getting into fatty acid stores. If this is the case, how long do you have to go? And what are you doing in those first 20 minutes of work if not burning fat?? My wife says I don't need cardio because I have never been fat. I don't know the answer,but from what I have seen and been through and observed, my conclusion is not a very efficient fat burner in any way, and you would be much better served concentrating on diet and resistance training for fat burning. Do cardio by all means for cardiovascuar health, but beyond that??Just some thoughts, I am happy to have this community to open this discussion with. I hope to get lots of opinions and facts from all of you. So there it is...(gulp!), my views.
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2002/11/22, 08:53 PM
I might add that I think cardio can be useful for small amounts of fat, like during contest training time when already really lean, and trying to shed that 1 or 2% final bodyfat.
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2002/11/23, 09:15 AM
Your point is well taken. I have seen people in the gym whose physiques have not changed either. Cardio is what I see most of them do. There is this girl who exercises her butt off on the elliptical. She also weight trains. There has been no change. From my perspective diet seems to be the answer for her. No she is not fat. The way she is training it looks like she wants to lose more fat for definition. It is what I would do if I did not know any better. Recently I have seen her switch the cardio around. I saw her on the bicycle a few times. I really do want to go up to her and ask her questions because I have heard her mention she is on a mission. Mission for what?
What I believe and has worked for me is all three combined. I do not feel that a person has to do marathon sessions of cardio unless 1) They want to eat more. 2) They want to see the lbs drop on the scale.
Basically what I do is cardio 3X a week 20-30 min. I did a three day split for weights and watched my diet and a gallon of water per day. Working on the sleep issue. I feel this is just as important for fat loss and muscle building. For the diet what has worked for me is eating 5-6x a day and cycling my P/C/F and calorie ratios. I also think it depends on your activity level throughout the day.
My $.02.
:) Melissa
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Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
- -- Aristotle
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2002/11/23, 10:16 AM
I am starting to believe what BB says ...I have spent the last 4 months trying to lose the last 10lbs of post-pregnancy weight, by going nuts on the cardio. It wasn't until I started doing some weight training and paying attention to what I am eating (although more than usual)that the pounds started to drop. I will continue to experiement with the whole cardio/weight thing, by concentrating more on the weights. Thanks for the info BB keep the advice coming!
:)
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2002/11/23, 10:46 AM
Well ladies, nice to hear your opinions. I REALLY want to hear these. I would love to hear from someone who has actually had a big fat loss via cardio(not weight loss). Mandre makes a great point, and I was going to include that in my original post, but forgot. All 3 may work well together, but cardio in itself is not an efficient fat burner in any way. It can be a useful tool done sparingly, in fact, I like to use it as a "secret" weapon to my body when I am dieting for a competition, and trying to lose that last stubborn couple percent. And then it is a HIIT version.
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2002/11/23, 10:55 AM
I ama big cardi0 fan but.....Just as the name implies
CARDIOVASCULAR. They have the same name on dept's in the hospitals and its just that. No losing weight there in those dept's.
I do the cardio for my own personal challenge of ditance and speed goals.
It helps speed up the meabolic rate but the diet and weights go along with it. Alone, I'd say it isn't effective.
I see both men and women working up a good sweat, in shape and out of shape, imagine if the in shape people lost fat from running? they would eventually have to stop.
I agree with you bb1fit.
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To change it, or to create it, simply train it!
Ivan Montreal Canada
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2002/11/23, 07:29 PM
I have a very fast metabolism, so I really don't need to do cardio. However, I agree with you 100% that if your diet isn't in check than you might as well forget about seeing those results you are working for.
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"Some people call it insanity, I call it intensity"
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2002/11/24, 01:53 AM
Also dont forget, when you are doing cardio, what are you doing? you are starving the fat cells, dehydrating them. Therefore you should not drink more water than you sweat ON days that you do cardio. that could be another factor to why with doing cardio you may not see a dramatic change in physique.
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2002/11/24, 02:13 PM
one thing i should add to the above. you should not drink more water than you sweat after you do cardio ( just clerifying that statement)
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2002/11/25, 08:58 AM
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Quoting from bb1fit:
I might add that I think cardio can be useful for small amounts of fat, like during contest training time when already really lean, and trying to shed that 1 or 2% final bodyfat.
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Now why is that? Are you saying that cardio is useful for small amounts because it is increasing the amount of calories "out"? I have heard it is all about calories in vs. calories out. Additionally, after my 2nd baby I started working cardio again, had minimal loss then stopped. Started watching my diet and started lifting, and continued cardio 3-4 weekly, started losing. Anytime, I screw up my diet, I stop or gain. It's a slooowww process for me.
I have a girlfriend who does cardio 1-1 1/2 hours daily and 1 hour of lifting daily. She eats very little. She's in great shape and looks fab, however with all that working out I'd expect her to be cut and she's not. She is working for that definition.
My sister-in-law who should be entering contests, does all three--cardio, weights, diet. She also does a body balance class that she swears has helped shape her like never before. She's always been in great shape. She had a hard time keeping weight ON when she was doing tons of cardio.
So, it seems to me that it can be different for different people. I wish I knew what would be the best way to go, but for me, I'll just keep plugging along and soaking up all the information I can get my hands on. I love all the information this site provides. Keep it coming!
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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us
----- William Morrow
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2002/11/25, 11:45 AM
Here's a good article (over at johnberardi.com)
Cardio For Gain, Cardio For Loss
Q: I've seen you recommend doing cardio after training in some situations while recommending cardio on separate days in other situations. Why the difference? Should I do cardio at all and if so, when should I do it? Or should I just eat well?
A: I don't understand why there's a huge cardio debate in weight-training circles. I wish I could just click my heels two times and it would just go away. I guess my first idea is that cardio probably has a place in virtually every trainee's program. Now the one caveat here is that athletes training for pure strength and power should probably do no cardio at all since cardiovascular exercise can interfere with strength development.
Cardio can cause a shift in muscle fiber type from very fast twitch (glycolytic) fibers to slower fibers (oxidative/glycolytic). In strength and power athletes, this can lead to lower total force development and lower rate of force development. This means sub-optimal lifting performance. However, this same shift in fiber type is probably beneficial for bodybuilders, recreational trainees interested in improving body composition, and other types of athletes. They should all do their cardio.
Understand that there are many ways to accomplish your physique goals, too many to discuss in a single article or Q and A column. I've seen people get lean with and without cardio. And I've seen people get big with and without cardio. There are so many other variables involved in improving your body. Cardio is just a piece of the puzzle. However, let me give some guidelines for optimizing your progress.
Moderate duration, low intensity cardiovascular exercise leads to increases in both insulin dependent and insulin-independent glucose and amino acid uptake in muscle and liver cells for several hours after the exercise bout. So as a result, cardio can be somewhat anabolic for muscle tissue (from a nutrient partitioning viewpoint). Also, cardiovascular exercise burns a good amount of calories (and therefore fat) and leads to increased muscular uptake of nutrients for hours after exercise (there's that nutrient partitioning again).
This should make it clear that in addition to anabolism, cardio can also contribute to fat loss. So with the potential anabolic effects of cardio as well as the potential for fat loss, I don't see why anyone interested either in getting bigger or getting leaner would exclude cardio from their training program.
Sure, some have argued in the past that cardio can be very catabolic, blah, blah, blah, but if you combine your cardio training with eating for your goals, and you avoid doing excessive high-intensity cardio work, your cardio will have mostly desirable effects.
So, since I recommend cardio for both getting bigger and getting leaner, let's split them up and discuss the best way to incorporate cardio into both types of programs.
Gettin' Bigger
Since increasing muscle mass is the goal, it's especially important to eat enough to compensate for the caloric expenditure of all your exercise (weights and cardio). Using the Massive Eating plan will help in this. With this plan, cardiovascular exercise fits in quite nicely, as the cardio will help increase nutrient partitioning and the muscle to fat gain ratio. In the perfect world, the best way to incorporate cardio into your program would be as follows:
First, directly after your weight training workouts, you'd perform about 15 minutes of cardiovascular exercise at about 60 to 70% of your HR max (which is 220 minus your age). Immediately after this session consume a Biotest Surge or a Biotest Surge-like beverage containing 0.4 grams of protein hydrolysate and 0.8 grams of carbohydrate per kg of body mass. Then about an hour later, consume another meal. This time choose food sources that contain about a one to two ratio of protein to carbs.
Next, on your non-weight training days perform 30 minutes of cardio at 60 to 70% of your HR max. This should not be done in the morning on an empty stomach but sometime during the day about 120 minutes after a meal. Immediately after the cardio session, again consume Biotest Surge or a Biotest Surge-like beverage. This time however, you won't need to eat again 60 minutes later. Just get back on track to eating every three hours or so after this, being sure to eat enough calories to match or exceed your maintenance needs.
Gettin' Leaner
To lose body fat, a combination of diet and exercise is the way to go. Obviously, eating below your maintenance level is necessary for fat loss. Using the Massive Eating principles of food selection and macronutrient combinations, subtracting about 25% of your calculated caloric needs should do the trick.
As far as the cardio goes, the idea here is to increase total calorie expenditure, to increase fat utilization, and to decrease potential fat storage. While the focus may be a bit different, the recommendations are only slightly different from above.
First, directly after your weight training workouts, you'd perform about 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise at 60 to 70% of your HR max. Immediately after this session, consume a Biotest Surge-like beverage containing 0.4 grams of protein hydrolysate and 0.8 grams of carbohydrate per kg of body mass. However, don't eat again an hour later. After your post-workout drink, just eat every three hours as usual.
Next, on your non-weight training days perform 30 minutes of cardio at 60 to 70% of your HR max. This time, the cardio should be done in the morning on an empty stomach. Again, immediately after the cardio session, consume a Biotest Surge-like beverage. And again, just get back on your normal diet plan of eating every three hours or so.
Using the aforementioned plans, you should be able to use cardio as an effective tool in achieving your goal of body comp improvement. And by the way, since it can help your physique progress, a few nifty "side effects" include better heart, circulatory system, and respiratory system function as well as better overall health and longevity.
Summary: Do your cardio!
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2002/11/25, 11:49 AM
Good question Metraa....I think that cardio can work well for that final bit of fat loss by keeping it in reserve so to speak, a final shock to the body. If you cardio on a daily basis, I think your body adapts at best. All people are different. I don't know if cardio is like resistance training. I don't know if you can keep increasing your cardio in some way. Marathon sessions are counterproductive. Whereas with weights, you can keep increasing your weights to make gains, or even lower them to change. My question is simply is cardio in itself a good fat burner? My main point here is to try to get people who are hung up just on cardio, which there are lots, to incorporate resistance training, and changing their diet. Cardio by itself will not do what you want other than cardiovascular health. I am happy to get feedback from everyone. Keep them coming. Great insight and great views from the community.
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2002/11/25, 12:00 PM
Well, my turn. I gained a bunch of weight a couple of winters ago and I lost 35lbs in 5 months doing cardio alone. I changed my diet as well which is also key. I've done a lot of reading on this subject and cardio does really beneficial things, it's great for your overall health, i.e., heart especially, and it DOES burn fat. carivan touched on what I believe is the key and that is heart rate. My cardio workout(usually running and biking) is often 85-93% of my max heart rate based on my age and BMI. Therefore, I know my calorie burn is greater than the occasional jogger that may be exercising at 65% of max.
On the other hand, weight training has increased my muscle mass and helped my physique (no surprise there) and I balance weight training with running. I don't do both the same day anymore since cardio can somewhat negate intended muscle gain. There is balance to strike and those that just do cardio will eventually lose some weight (assuming their diet isn't exceeding their calorie expenditure). Combining it with cardio IS an effective exercise program for keeping trim and keeping the body healthy. Weight training by itself doesn't give some of the benefits inherent of running such as better bone density, etc. I've seen guys that are huge (muscle wise) and they can't run any kind of distance to speak of. That's because running is one form of training that isn't substitued by an intense weight training session.
Well, I know I'll get some disagreement here but, I'm going by what I've experienced and what I've read.
Opinions?
DP
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2002/11/25, 12:06 PM
I know that when i lost the first 60 lbs back in 94(I have since gained it back AARRGGHH), it was thru a massive change in my diet first. I was is college and of course like most there ate at those nice cafes, and take out places on campus. I had been eating a diet of fries and burgers etc. I was eating dinner one night witha friend and got sick. Yup puked my guts out. I never get sick like that never. This happend twice more. I then dropped the meal plan so I had to buy all my food. I started to eat rice, beans, tuna. I also bought over the Christmas break a pair of 30 lb dumbbells. All I did was situps, pushups and curls, tri. and shoulders with the dumbbells. From Jan-Aug of 94 that was what I did. I did walk everywhere which was all the cardio I did. It was not till the fall that I started to run, I met a friend that ran and lifted. So after all that I feel that it was diet and weights that helped me loose that weight. Now I am trying the same but also throwing in a little cardio as well. But still feel that diet and weights are the main key to it all.
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IF THE SWEAT AIN'T IN YOUR EYES, AND IT AIN'T STINGING, THEN YOU AIN'T LIFTIN!
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2002/11/25, 12:11 PM
You are absolutely right DP, as you stated you changed your diet also. Your statements further my feelings that cardio works ok in COMBINATION, not by itself as a fat burner.Cardio by itself is great for cardiovascular health, lung capacity, etc., but by itself without diet change and resistance training, you will accomplish nothing else. So everyone, I think the conclusion here is no one thing will work very good by itself. It is a blend of the three, with probably proper diet topping the list.
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2002/11/25, 07:20 PM
I should be a case study for this topic. At 49 years old I have probably averaged over 10 hours of cardio/wk for 30 years. Usually a combo of running, biking, tennis etc., always at a high intensity level. While I feel quite fit, I have always carried 15 or so extra pounds. All you need to do is look at the number of calories you burn by running for an hour and compare it to the number you can lose in 5 minutes by eating a twinkie or piece of cake. It seems obvious but sometimes you need to be hit over the head. I have always lifted weights but have increased my intensity because of this site. I'm also, for the first time starting to concentrate on my diet.( you can teach an old dog new tricks). I agree with much of what has been posted. I will never give up cardio because it is a big part of my life and will let you know how these changes work. Thanks to all for your help.
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GRS
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2002/11/25, 08:28 PM
Glad to hear we could help. It is what we strive to do in this community. Best of luck to all of you.
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The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary!
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2002/11/26, 07:33 AM
Yes bb1, agree a good dynamic fitness program is very beneficial across the entire spectrum.
DP
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2002/11/26, 08:00 AM
What does your diet look like BB1fit? Just out of interest.
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2002/11/26, 12:30 PM
I am currently at 3200 calories per day, on a gaining cycle. 340/265/65....p/c/f. I am slowly increasing my fats and carbs, will get up to around 3500-3700 cal. My protein will stay the same. A large portion of that protein is pre and post workout. 72 gr. of it are here. Been doing it slowly since my last contest Oct. 5th, do not think it good to immediately throw tons of calories at your body immediately after the trauma of contest dieting. Am starting to gain pretty nicely right now.
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2002/11/26, 12:42 PM
I have a girlfriend who does cardio 1-1 1/2 hours daily and 1 hour of lifting daily. She eats very little. She's in great shape and looks fab, however with all that working out I'd expect her to be cut and she's not. She is working for that definition.
That could be because shes eating too little, and her body thinks she is starving?? I mean u can keep forcing it to a point, when ur body will burn when shes workin out, but almost stop burning while shes not. Just a suggestion
I agree about the cardio. I am 6'3 24 yrs old and I have been dieting for a month and a half, and i started at 333 lbs. I am down to 324. I didnt work out AT ALL. I was doing HIIT and my heart started fibrilating on me UGH what a nightmare. Doc says its a flukey thing, but if it happens again to get ablated. ANYWAYS, I did the HIIT program 6 days a week for 5 weeks before the heart thing happened and I had only lost 8 lbs in that time. I was controlling my diet then too. I am currently doing the same diet as before...so there was no difference for me in doing alot of working out as opposed to controlling my diet. (I do 6 small meals a day, 2200 cal target).
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2002/11/26, 02:59 PM
Good post bb1.
People tend to not question convention. You look around the gym and think, "Well if cardio wasn't the miracle fat burner that we're told it is, than this many people wouldn't be doing it." That train of thought alone is responsible for so much misinformation, not only in fitness, but everywhere. The food pyramid's low fat, high carb diet is another example of this. All of these myths were commonly accepted because it seemed like everyone else agreed with them. Unfortunately, everyone else wasn't questioning them, either!
Personally, I continue to do cardio, not for fat loss, but to get in shape for playing ultimate or football. If you're going to obsess about cardio, that should be why.
It's amazing how much it takes to convince someone to break convention. I had a friend that has recently started working out more consistently. She insisted on doing cardio to lose weight. She'd do it four times a week while lifting only twice a week. She soon started complaining to me that she wasn't getting the results she expected. I simply reiterated what I had initially told her. The first question, of course, was, "Then why do so many people do cardio?" . . .
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2002/11/26, 03:18 PM
Eh, what? You can NEVER drink too much water. Proper hydration creates an anabolic state in your body.
As far as the fat cells, they are merely an energy storage mechanism in your body. They are not metabolically active, until you tap into them. When you do cardio, you do not starve or dehydrate them, because they do not use any resources. When you exercise, you force your body to tap into those energy stores to power itself. You should never limit the amount of water you take in any time, including after cardio. If you do that, the only weight loss you'll see is because of dehydration.
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Quoting from SRZrasoul:
Also dont forget, when you are doing cardio, what are you doing? you are starving the fat cells, dehydrating them. Therefore you should not drink more water than you sweat ON days that you do cardio. that could be another factor to why with doing cardio you may not see a dramatic change in physique.
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2002/11/26, 03:21 PM
Good point bb1! With long bouts of cardio, you generally see progressively diminishing returns. That is to say, you will see a lesser calorie output in your second half hour of cardio than on your first half hour (assuming anyone here actually goes that long). I remember reading an article about this, too, but again can't remember when or where.
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Quoting from bb1fit:
Good question Metraa....I think that cardio can work well for that final bit of fat loss by keeping it in reserve so to speak, a final shock to the body. If you cardio on a daily basis, I think your body adapts at best. All people are different. I don't know if cardio is like resistance training. I don't know if you can keep increasing your cardio in some way. Marathon sessions are counterproductive. Whereas with weights, you can keep increasing your weights to make gains, or even lower them to change. My question is simply is cardio in itself a good fat burner? My main point here is to try to get people who are hung up just on cardio, which there are lots, to incorporate resistance training, and changing their diet. Cardio by itself will not do what you want other than cardiovascular health. I am happy to get feedback from everyone. Keep them coming. Great insight and great views from the community.
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2002/11/27, 12:42 AM
Just a mention: I'm training 30 min cardio 4 days a week, plus weights, ballet and pilates 5 days a week. I started in august at 128 lbs, feeling a little too 'jiggly' for comfort. I have since lost only 4 lbs, but am down a couple of sizes of clothing, and the jiggles are gone! While ballet, not cardio, is my main focus, I have lost a ton of 'visible' fat, although my weight hasn't gone down significantly as the muscle comes on. It feels really good to wear a size 2 again, and I know that for me, cardio is a major contributor, although I have changed my diet significantly. My opinion is that cardio is an important part of the process, but not the only factor in losing fat.
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Think you can or think you can't; either way you're right--Goethe
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2002/12/01, 01:36 PM
quoting effalunt..
My opinion is that cardio is an important part of the process, but not the only factor in losing fat.
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I am beginning to think its not crucial, but "only somewhat necessary" as far as losing fat. I am a male though, for women it may be different. But if I put muscle on, and keep my diet controlled, I think i will lose fat. I think the cardio is good for keeping your lung capacity high (like bb1fit said in another thread) and also enabling you to handle more at a time. Sorta like for endurance. Respiratory and circulatory health.
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2002/12/03, 01:45 PM
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Quoting from SRZrasoul:
one thing i should add to the above. you should not drink more water than you sweat after you do cardio ( just clerifying that statement)
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2002/12/03, 01:45 PM
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Quoting from SRZrasoul:
one thing i should add to the above. you should not drink more water than you sweat after you do cardio ( just clerifying that statement)
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2002/12/03, 01:46 PM
Oh now Im really confused. What happens to the gal water Im drinking per day?
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Quoting from SRZrasoul:
one thing i should add to the above. you should not drink more water than you sweat after you do cardio ( just clerifying that statement)
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2002/12/03, 01:55 PM
cc...I think I would disregard that water statement. I have never heard of that, in fact hydration is crucial. Drinking water more will also have the added benefit of helping your body not need to try to retain water. Plus wash waste out, etc. Keep drinking your water.
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The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary!
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2002/12/03, 04:25 PM
bb1fit,
I am really getting confused man. I have talked to a friend of mine that is very strong , lots of muscle, but tryin to get into shape himself. He does HIIT (Basically he does (www.bodyforlife.com)). He believes that if you dont do the cardio, you may still lose weight but not as much. I am guessing this is from his own experiences.
But, would it matter where you are as far as your targets?? I am 324lb 24 yrs old and doing a 6 small meal a day diet.
He is doing the same diet, hes 245lbs 27 yrs old. He does HIIT cardio and weigh tlifts, but according to body for life, which is similar to the mass building program but more toward toning, not building.
I dont know, I am not sure which way to go. Personally I want to try the mass building program but keep my calories low around 2000 or so. That way I can continue to burn fat but only do weightlifting, with very minimal cardio. Would this work for me in your opinion?
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2002/12/03, 08:58 PM
Firehawk..with your bodyweight being where it is, I would not do any mass program. I would opt for a hardening type program. This will consist of moderate weights, higher reps, lean diet, and CARDIO. See, my point with the cardio post was just to get people who are doing JUST cardio to incorporate resistance training and diet to meet their goals, that cardio in itself would not do what they want..i.e...burn fat. But in conjunction with the other 2, it can be a useful tool. Remember simple math, more calories expended tban taken in, you will lose weight. More calories taken in than expended, and you will gain weight. If you incorporate cardio, say even 15min. after weight training, that is say just throwing a number out there, 150 calories expended. Okay, now your diet has been decreased by say 150 calories also. That is a net of 300 calories, in a week of 5 days this is 1500 calories minus. You have to lose weight! Add in your resistance training, with toning your muscles and maybe even building some, and you are burning even more. 2000 calories may or may not be sufficient for your diet, it is as much the type of calories as the amount. Hope this helps some. Kind of long, but hope it makes sense.
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The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary!
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2002/12/03, 11:26 PM
yaeh it makes sense just i hate the cardio part. And ive done the calorie deficit before, taking it as far as writing everything down that I eat. And I hvae lost well on it, but the thing that I noticed was after 5 weeks of HIIT cardio and weight training, and doing a good 6 meal per day diet at 2000 calories, i lost the exact same as I did JUST doing the same diet.
Weird isnt it? I tend to control my own destiny. My metabolism seems to be controllable (not like some where no matter wat they eat they burn it off , bastards). I just want to do as much weights for exercise as possible without the cardio as much as necessary.
What I plan then to do is weight training 5 days a week, followed by 20 mins of bike at mid intensity. i am going to try the "fat loss and definition training" program, see how that works for me.
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2002/12/03, 11:27 PM
Firehawk....in essence, the BFL program or one very similar would probably be great for you. I would avoid anything with the word mass, as that in itself means more caloric intake probably, which you don't want. Best of luck. You can achieve your goals. Stick with it.
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The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary!
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2002/12/08, 11:36 AM
Thanks BB....the diet is working. Wow Im really watchin some things happen...thanks again. Oh I have to go to the tinkel room. WATER lol thanks Ive got my gal right with me. :)
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2003/12/14, 06:36 PM
Well, now...I am confused. I've been working toward bringing my b/f % from 23% to under 10% and it seems to be working with dramatic change in my diet and a cardio maybe 5 times per week. I'm at the tail end of the fat loss portion of my program and I have been incorporating more strength training with cardio. I wonder if I should eliminate cardio all together? I estimate I've got about 15 pounds of fat left to lose. Any tips?
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2003/12/15, 10:00 AM
Think of cardio as an extension of your diet. If you are trying to lose fat, your job is to create a caloric deficit. (you cannot tap into your fat stores without this) You cannot cut calories forever, you will end up starving and losing the wrong weight. So cardio can pick up the slack and create a caloric deficit for you. Do your cardio, try to do it with a separation time of 6-8 hrs. if this is feasible for you. Even better, do it on your off days. Now, if you are losing with what you are doing, then don't stop. Don't fix what isn't broken. When you are at a decent bodyfat level, everything you do will work. This protocol I mentioned above is more for when your bodyfat levels are getting very low, and you are fighting to hold lean tissue.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/16, 08:38 AM
Well here is a different opinion...
I hate cardio and never do it!
Since I have been back training I have lost about 10kgs in four months. My blood pressure, heart rate, and colestrol levels have always been very good, even though I used to eat heaps of crappy fast foods.
I believe that that cardio does very little in the way of fat loss, that resistance training and a good diet is all that it takes to lose that unwanted fat...
As we have seen on posts here time and time again, fat loss is caused by less calories in than spent in our daily routines.
You may say that including cardio in my routine would speed up the fat loss. However, if it was sped up any more I would be losing more than the healthy 2 to 3 pounds a week!
So, in conclusion, I think that cardio is fine for those that want to include it in their routines, but I don't feel that it really helps much in actual fat loss, from my experience, as when I was doing it, it really made no difference at all.
I have also read many articles about it, and it would appear that if you are exercising at a pace where you are breathing very heavy or puffing, then it does not burn body fats anyway - it is in fact burning blood sugars for fuel, and that the best pace for using this to actually burn 'fats' is at a moderate pace where you can still speak without a loss of breath...
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2003/12/16, 09:02 AM
BB1 , you say you believe to do cardio primarily just for cardiovascular fitness...
In that case, if you did it solely for that reason and that reason alone, then how much should you do? And is HIIT cardio fine for that?
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2003/12/16, 10:09 AM
Another opinion; Great!!! I believe that cardio work has a major impact on weight/fat loss...It has been a great manipulator when talking about my metabolism, and has seem to have made a difference on how efficient my body transports nutrients, and burns the fuels I give it. I think over time one would notice the difference a little easier; kinda like the difference of putting 87 octane fuel with 10% alcohol, and 94 octane with no alcohol in your car..
Just my opinion...
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2003/12/16, 10:17 AM
Again, cardio number 1 is for cardiovascular fitness. Number two, the way it helps you lose fat is not the "action" of the cardio itself while you are doing it, it is the caloric deficit you get through doing it. As firehawk asks, HIIT may be best here. It's purpose once again is not so much the calories on the readout, but what it does to your baseline metabolism for the day! This, combined with the poper diet will give you the caloric deficit you need to tap into your fat stores. As I mentioned time and timea again, think of cardio as an extension of your diet!!!! There is a point where you can no longer cut calories without being unsafe. At this point, cardio can be a tremendous aid to a continued caloric deficit, by raising of baseline metabolism, this in turn helps create a caloric deficit. Use cardio as a tool to lose weight(diet extension), not as a lose all weight loss.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/16, 01:05 PM
You must do resistance training first and foremost. If you do not do this, sculpt your body so to speak, by just incorporating cardio you will simply in the long run become a smaller version of what you now are. In other words, if you are shaped like a pear now, you will become simply a smaller pear provided your diet is correct. But, with proper diet and resistance training, you will be able to sculpt your body much like a piece of clay. You cannot do this with cardio alone. So the answer is first, resistance training, equally as much diet to reap the benefits from your training, and cardio for cardiovascular health and to aid you in your fat burning by helping with the caloric deficit you need to tap your fat stores. IF ANYONE GETS NOTHING ELSE OUT OF THIS, YOU SHOULD GET THIS PART IN YOUR HEAD! A CALORIC DEFICIT IS NECESSARY TO TAP YOUR FAT STORES. NO MATTER HOW IT IS ACHEIVED, THIS MUST BE DONE. CARDIO IS BUT AN EXTENSION OF THIS PRINCIPLE.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/16, 01:25 PM
I have to agree with bb1. I've seen so many aerobic instructors with many years experience that just don't look fit even though they teach 2 or more classes a day. On the same note, at my gym I see women who I call skinny fat doing cardio every day with minimal weight training...it just doesn't work. Weight training and diet come first!
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2003/12/16, 06:58 PM
I agree with the man...I trained for years and years(with cardio included). Yes, I lost a few pounds here and there, but not without sacrificing some lean mass. I still looked smooth and rounded. It wasn't until I trained for a bodybuilding show that I saw the difference a caloric deficit makes. It took me 12 weeks of this type of lifestyle, with minimal cardio, and I got ripped. If anything, keep the "caloric deficit" in mind when you decide to lose weight. Don't get me wrong, cardio helps, but I swear, I never saw my body like that before by doing the caloric deficit.
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If you joined the powers of TSMD and 7707Mutt, it would equal that of a freight train!
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2004/01/04, 08:59 PM
My week includes:
3 cycling classes (40 minutes)
2 weight training classes(1 hour targeting everything)
2 step aerobics classes(1 hour)
2-3 days of 20-30 minutes on the elliptical
I am gaining weight and my clothes are getting tight. How frustrating is that? What should I do? I am 5'2" and 115lbs and I eat really well.
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2004/01/05, 11:38 AM
Well, BB1 about to put that philosophy to the test. I DO AGREE that if you dont have an effective eating plan...I dont care how much you workout and cardio...It just wont do what the effort was worth. Thanks for the always enlightening thoughts and advice.
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2004/01/05, 12:47 PM
The idea is that resistance training sculpts your physique, builds lean tissue which burns fat via an increased metabolism, makes you look better and harder. Cardio by itself will not do this, but it is an aid in the extension of your diet for a caloric deficit, and of course cardiovascular health. (the heart is a muscle that needs to be maintained also of course). Just do not rely totally on cardio to achieve your lean body goals.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/01/05, 08:03 PM
i dont disagre with you bb1fit but i lost a lot of wh just by walking i whould walk 1 1/2 m to and from my frends house i never lifted wh and i lost 30+ pounds 210-175 at one point i got down to 170 but once i started lefting wh i went back to 175 i had no chang in my diat at all till i started with the wh my doc says it was cuse i wint form siting at home playing vido games all day to walking and my body wint into shok i dont now but at any case i did lose the pounds iv keep them off one thing my gut did shrink more whin i staterd lifting wh
i wont sotp till i met my goal
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2004/01/06, 02:55 AM
When i was overweight, i lost most of it doing cardio alone(45-50 lbs). But i got to a point where no matter how much i was doing, nothing was changing. Even now, i still run about 2 or 3 times a week but don't see much difference.
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2004/01/06, 10:00 AM
There is no debate that you can't lose "weight" with cardio alone. Cut your calories, add the calorie burn from cardio, and you have to lose weight. The point is what type of weight? Much lean tissue will come with that weight loss, and, because of this your muscle to fat ratio may become worse. Even though you will be lighter, you will still be a "soft" lighter, due to less lean tissue. Therefore, you always run the risk of if and when you start to eat again, a rebound effect due to the loss of lean tissue. This is what burns fat when we are not exercising. Plus you will not "shape" your body in any way, so you cannot achieve that lean scultped look you would like. Want to see a six pack? Never happen with cardio alone.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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