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2004/10/01, 10:25 AM
This is a topic i've been trying to research for a long time, but it seems that most people are only interested in throwing on the aesthetic bulky muslces rather than striving to achieve the best bodymass-power(or strength) ratio.
Being a martial artist, i want to incorporate weight training to improve, however people constantly warn me not to, as the extra mass will only slow me down. This is about the time when i went and bought "the art of expressing the human body - bruce lee" which told me jack s**t (although a good read). I've always been a skinny guy, despite rowing and swimming for 3 years, so i wouldnt mind developing a more solid upper body, but only if it doesn't compromise power.
Basicaly my goals are to be as strong as i can possibly be for the particular weight i achieve. So i dont mind if I gain some muscle mass (infact that would be good) as long as pound for pound i'm strong. ie. I don't want to have these big great looking muscles that perform the same as smaller muscles that are well trained.
Hence, my question which i haven't managed to find almost any info on is:
What mass, sets, repetitions, technique etc (general excercise program) do i need to do to achieve this sortof goal?
If anyone can help me, it'd be deaply appreciated.
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2004/10/01, 10:28 AM
PS. I know what muscle groups i want to target etc, i just need to know how to excercise them in general. once again thanks.
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2004/10/01, 12:36 PM
well if you wanna get bigger, and get rid of the "skinny" look, then you need to eat more, start off with 1g protein per body weight. (200lbs 200g protein)
Next get a work out off here to get you "in shape" to get "in shape" Then you can come back and find somthing a little more helpful to martial arts.
Id also have to say you need to train your body as a whole, not just upper body. If you just workout your upper body, you will get out of porporton. Weak legs mean you have a weakness. If I was still in martial arts, one of the things you look for is a weakness, and legs and knees are and easy way to take somone down. If I say your legs apeared weak, I would take full advantage of it!
IF you can squat more, you can get more power out of a kick.
If you can bench more, you can punch harder.
If your back is strong, you can recoil your punch faster, to get ready for another punch.
etc etc.
also don't forget abbs too...
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......quote the Andrew....nevermore
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2004/10/01, 02:22 PM
Also your cardio. "Proper breathing is ho bigger guys stay in the ring longer." - My instructor, a bigger guy at just under 300 pounds
I have noticed that my back-knuckle strikes are really weak. Then I go to the gym and notice that my tricep workouts are really weak. Coincidence?
For the kicks, I like the squats, lunges, adductor (? for outer hips, higher side kicks and round houses, stronger crescent kicks), leg extensions (higher front kicks), calf extension for the general bouncing around the matt. Plus, lots of stretching, even down to the toes. I am learning to curl my toes back during my kicks. I keep hitting the bag with them.
For the punches, the cable machines have been fun for me. I like to simply set the machine to light weights and go through all of my punches. You have to adjust the height and your body position, but it's all good.
Learn to hit one way, and one way only. HARD.
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I will never grow up, just old.
Duct tape is like The Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
- Carl Zwanzig
Jonathan
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2004/10/01, 03:50 PM
Most fighting athletes don't lift heavy. They aim more toward lifting body wieght to gain explosive power. Mixed Martial Arts fighters like Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, and even the HUGE Bob Sapp exercise with body weight or higher reps. Exposive exercises like cleans and upright rows are great. Doing this lets you build strenght without getting slow and stiff which is what happens when you lift heavy and do low reps.
I like to do my barbell bench press by, first putting on a light amount of wieght, then putting tubing going from one side of the bar, under the bench, to the other side of the bar. When you lower the bar it gets easier. When you explode up it gets hard as the tubing is getting streched. Also doing exercises while standing on a balance board, or doing dumbbell bench while laying on an exercise ball will help work on balance and stabilizing muscles.
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2004/10/01, 05:28 PM
Exposive exercises like cleans and upright rows are great. Doing this lets you build strenght without getting slow and stiff which is what happens when you lift heavy and do low reps.
I LIFT HEAVY ALOT and I promise you lb for lb i'm pretty damn fast.
I can leg press 1400+ lbs think of what i could do to ya if I kicked ya in the head?
slow and stiff haha
Oh and by the way, I have bob sapps work outs, he does two a week, and does heavy sets.....600+ bench, 800+ dls, same with squats. Don't mater what degree black belt you are or what kata's you know, a guy that benches 600lbs hitts you, your going down period.
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......quote the Andrew....nevermore
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2004/10/01, 07:46 PM
Bob Sapp is a terrible fighter, but he does do body wieght execises. He also hits people all the time and they don't go down. As a matter of fact they usually come back to brutalize him because he's slow, stiff and uncoordinated.
Also I don't care if you leg press 10,000lbs I bet a 150 place kicker in the NFL can kick harder than you which 100% proves what I'm saying. Strenght means nothing without speed.
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2004/10/01, 08:07 PM
Loss Kazuyuki Fujita Submission (Strikes) K-1 MMA-ROMANEX 5/22/2004
Win Sumiyabazar Dolgorsuren Towel (Foot Injury) K-1-Beast 2004 3/14/2004
Win Stefan Gamlin Submission (Guillotine Choke) K-1-Japan Grand Prix 2003 9/21/2003
Win Yoshihiro Takayama Submission (Armbar) Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2002-K-1 vs. Inoki 12/31/2002
Loss Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Submission (Armbar) PRIDE-Shockwave 8/28/2002
Win Kiyoshi Tamura TKO (Punches) PRIDE 21-Demolition 6/23/2002
Win Yoshihisa Yamamoto TKO (Strikes) PRIDE 20-Armed and Ready 4/28/2
brutalized huh? only 2 loses......not bad for a guy that doesn't know much martial arts
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......quote the Andrew....nevermore
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2004/10/01, 08:20 PM
by the way, I never said, speed was not an asset and not important, I only said, that just cause you lift heavy doesn't mean your slow. It takes explosivness, to move that weight. You can do high weight, and still be fast about it.
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......quote the Andrew....nevermore
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2004/10/01, 09:42 PM
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Quoting from bigandrew:
by the way, I never said, speed was not an asset and not important, I only said, that just cause you lift heavy doesn't mean your slow. It takes explosivness, to move that weight. You can do high weight, and still be fast about it.
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That is true, except in doing so, it requires more exertion and it limits manueverability significantly, which is why its rare you see 'bulky' martial artists.
As you two were discussing before, even though strength is a very good asset, without speed it is pointless in martial arts, so maybe its not strength i should be looking for so much, maybe its speed.. if so how would i train THAT? (ie, punching/kicking speed)
plyometrics??
And as for lower body training, i know it's important, but atm i'm not too concerned with it because my legs have always been far stronger and bulkyer than my upperbody, i have no idea why, but leg strength and size is not an issue for me in my current condition.
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2004/10/01, 10:44 PM
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Quoting from bigandrew:
Loss Kazuyuki Fujita Submission (Strikes) K-1 MMA-ROMANEX 5/22/2004
Win Sumiyabazar Dolgorsuren Towel (Foot Injury) K-1-Beast 2004 3/14/2004
Win Stefan Gamlin Submission (Guillotine Choke) K-1-Japan Grand Prix 2003 9/21/2003
Win Yoshihiro Takayama Submission (Armbar) Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2002-K-1 vs. Inoki 12/31/2002
Loss Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Submission (Armbar) PRIDE-Shockwave 8/28/2002
Win Kiyoshi Tamura TKO (Punches) PRIDE 21-Demolition 6/23/2002
Win Yoshihisa Yamamoto TKO (Strikes) PRIDE 20-Armed and Ready 4/28/2002
Those wins were give to him to pad his record look at the combined record of the people he beat that you have listed
Sumiyabazar Dolgorsuren 0-2-0
Stefan Gamlin 0-2-0
Yoshihiro Takayama 0-4-0
Kiyoshi Tamura this guy is 11-8-0 but Sapp outwieghted him by over 150 pounds.
Yoshihisa Yamamoto 6-13-0
You also left out his K-1 Kickboxing record which is bad too.
Most top people in combat sports don't lift heavy beause is is counter-productive to what they are trying to do. Ask Felix Trinidad how much he benchs, Bernard Hopkins how much he can squat or ANY of the Gracies how much they can dead lift. They don't know and don't care.
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2004/10/02, 12:14 AM
Dooks, the best way to punch and kick faster, is buy punching and kicking. Hit the bag, hit the focus mitts, and shadow box. As for exercise work your triceps, forearms, lats(back), and your shoulders for your upper body, focus on you calves and abs for your lower body not heavy & low reps like I said earlier. Also streach to keep your hips loose. Most your power comes from twisting your hips.
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2004/10/02, 12:30 AM
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Quoting from JuggaJosh:
Dooks, the best way to punch and kick faster, is buy punching and kicking. Hit the bag, hit the focus mitts, and shadow box. As for exercise work your triceps, forearms, lats(back), and your shoulders for your upper body, focus on you calves and abs for your lower body not heavy & low reps like I said earlier. Also streach to keep your hips loose. Most your power comes from twisting your hips.
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Thanks alot for your help, i guess your right, to improve punching speed i need to actualy punch.
When i was shorter and like 2 years younger i used to be able to punch far quicker, now that im significantly taller and havent been as physically active, my arms feel just plain heavy and not near as quick.
By the way, what sortof training is it that Bruce Lee did? Ive heard he did mostly strength training, but hed progressively lower his weights and up the reps to prevent mass forming. I'm not sure if this is true though??
Anyone know what Bruce Lee did to achieve his physique and speed?
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2004/10/02, 01:31 PM
Good topic. I'm a big admirer of Bruce Lee's, so I did a few searches on his training methods. Here's my results:
*The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee
http://www.mikementzer.com/blee
Dookz, this site is pretty much exactly what you were looking for. If you intend on trying this workout, make sure you read and understand everything on that page. Best of luck.
Exercise Sets Repetitions
Clean & Press 2 8
Squats 2 12
Pullovers 2 8
Bench Presses 2 6
Good Mornings 2 8
Barbell Curls 2 8
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*Bruce Lee: The Best of the Best?
http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html
Here's an excerpt from this site about Lee's lower body strength:
Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength training program Lee used during 1965, he performed squats using 95 pnds with 10 reps. This would equate to an estimated 1RM of 130pnds, which would place him below the 25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males
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Interesting stuff...There's much more valuable info on these sites and even more if you do some of your own searches. These ones are just most relevant to this topic.
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*Bruce Lee's Weight Training
http://epgpfm.fateback.com/concepts/leeweight.html
*The Bruce Lee "Training Secret"
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/Articles/Article.3.html
*Samples of Bruce Lee's Fighting Method book
http://www.bruce-lee.netfirms.com/
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2004/10/04, 12:52 PM
well this all depend son if you wanna puch/kick harder ie. more force behind it.....or faster/speed?
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......quote the Andrew....nevermore
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2004/10/05, 04:18 PM
oh really krystyfer?
garantee you, you wouldn't last 1 min on a floor w/ me.
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......quote the Andrew....nevermore
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2004/10/06, 01:21 PM
Hi all, just FYI, my husband is a body builder and a blackbelt in takwondo. He is 5'5 and 180 lbs of solid muscle, and not only is he much stronger than most of his opponents but a lot less people "bother" him because he looks so big... it did compromise a tiny bit of speed but it wasn't a big deal for him, he can still run 2 miles in less than 14 minutes so....
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My mind tells me to win, my spirit shows me how, and my body delivers.
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2004/10/06, 01:33 PM
Your husband sounds like my kind of guy
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You can cover up the flaws on your body, but there is no hiding a flawed personality.
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2004/10/07, 10:34 PM
Actually, alot of coaches preach the importance of weight training to boxers & martial artists. Exercises like squats, deadlift, cleans, bench etc are actually very good. Bruce lee himself was one of, if not, the biggest promoter of weightlifting for Martial Arts. He actually reached 160lbs at one point and dropped back to 135, hes bf% was pretty darn low too.
In boxing many fighters drop weight to fight in lower weightclass, this may increase their speed but they find that it also decreases power. You just gotta find the right balance for you. As already been said, concentrate on explosive exercises and avoid machines. You wont necesarily need to build alot of size to build power. I know a amateur featherweight boxer in my gym who toys around with guys 200lbs+ in the ring.
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Accept the challenges, so that you may feel the exhilaration of victory
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2004/12/05, 05:49 PM
i do muay thai and building body mass never hurts you. speed is somehitng achived through constant trainning and stretching. stretching helps the muscle move with ease. oh and by the way, you can substitue some speed for timeing. if you can shorten the time in which you pull a move off and recover it will seem faster, just dont give your opponet the chance to interfere with your moves. in short, building a tough body wont hurt your speed as long as you build that too
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he is one of thoose men that would be enormaseouly improved by death
- saki
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2004/12/05, 08:06 PM
power cleans, deadlifts, squats and such are great exercises for GENERALIZED power...in the saggital plane of movement. what a martial artist needs is generalized power AND specific power in all planes of movement (primarily transverse and frontal). to attain a high level of power, you must first address your general condition and then move to strength. a martial artist depends on staying at certain pre-determined body weight, therefore he/she must attain a high level of relative strength and not concentrate so much on absolute strength. once a high level of relative strength has been achieved, then the athlete can choose between power or hypertrophy for their next cycle of training.
this of course means absolutely nothing if their core is unconditioned or dysfunctional. since all movements are initiated and stabilized by the core, training the core correctly is essential to high performance.
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2005/07/31, 09:54 PM
You can be big without being slow, usually your speed is pretty dependent on how much body fat you're lugging around, it can be hard to get explosiveness when your muscles are being restricted....
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