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2006/01/31, 12:08 AM
A competetant USAW coach and a personal trainer are two totally different things. As is a high school coach.
First, watch a few videos. I've posted some of a few olympic gold medalists in the powerlifting forum. Watch their form. Then, find people in a hardcore gym that are doing the movements the same way.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/01/31, 12:30 AM
How can you have strength without muscle that doesn’t make sense?
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2005/12/22, 08:13 PM
I’m trying to create a training schedule to gain as much strength and speed as possible with a minimal increase in body weight. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and most sources say that about 1-4 reps of 80-90% of your one rep maximum is the way to achieve this. Unfortunately, another book called “Full Strength” claims that this is not the case. The book claims that it is not strength but simply coordination that is being improved by this method of training and that strength increases without added muscle isn’t really possible. The book also claims that the coordination is not very transferable (basically it will only improve your performance in the weight room). I want to know if this is true or not and if so, what I can do to increase strength with little to no mass.
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2005/12/23, 12:08 AM
Ok, who are you going to believe? a book written by someone that has probably never been in the gym? Or would you rather see for yourself???
Go to a powerlifting meet. Look at the light weights lift more weight than most 250lb bodybuilders would ever dream possible. No disrespect meant here to the bodybuilders, but strength and hypertrophy, while related, are not interdependant.
1-3 reps with 90%+ for an EXPERIANCED trainee. 2-6 with 80%+ for a novice. Speed work with 45-65% max, 1-3 reps.
That is the way most powerlifters train. Heavy compound movements. This is the simplest terms I can put it in (much abbreviated).
I used to have the same fear as you (always having to make weight). What you have to realize, is that without a calorie surplus, it is HARD to build muscle. This is where diet comes into play.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/23, 06:32 PM
So than should adding alot of cardio to a powerlifting routine help to prevent increases in muscle mass? Also, have you noticed that powerlifting routines have improved your performance in anything other than just the weight room? I know you said that the book is probably wrong (and I really hope it is) but the guy seems to know what he's talking about. I just want to know what I'm doing and different people and different sources keep giving me different info so i'm confused as hell.
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2005/12/24, 04:43 AM
Not gaining 'mass' is simply a matter of keeping your overall caloric intake stable for your activity level....for example if you start lifting weights hard at the gym, and u add about 100-250calories...you probably still won't gain much if anything...because you'll be using these extra calories while working out...with extra cardio you'll be losing weight because you'll be creating a caloric deficit if u also keep your calories as they are...and during caloric deficit it's very very hard to build muscle if not almost impossible.......
yes your results will carry over to activities in real life...otherwise athletes all over the country wouldn't waste their time....however you have to choose your exercises wisely....some carry over better than other....machines, cables, smithh machine are poor choices....the best choices are free weight compound exercises....squats, deadlifts, rows, dips, bench presses, shrugs.....as well as variations of olympic lifts like power cleans, jerks, snatches, front squats, overhead squats, etc....olympic squats are probably most efficient at teaching your body for power, speed, quickness....and if can learn proper technique of olympic lifts then it will certainly improve your 'coordination' on the field...
there's obviously a catch(which the guy talks about although incorrectly) ....to become good at a given activity it's best to do that activity...so you have to also work hard at whatever sport you're involved in(as it has 100% carryover vs .e.g 70-80% for free weight exercises....so yes no free weight exercise perfectly carries over ontot he field and it's foolish to expect that)....I gained probably close to a foot of vertical in the weight room as well as a lot of speed...not to mention a ton of strength and power
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2005/12/24, 01:23 PM
I compete in no holds barred fighting (MMA), and wrestling. I would go as a far as saying that weight lifting has helped my performance more than anything other than technique practice.
I have seen the same with other athletes. A football player wants to decrease his 40 time, a basketball player wants to jump higher, a wrestler wants to finish his lifts better. Whats the best way to do it? Get stronger.
As for not being able to build strength, look at me and menace. I am a real small guy, but I put up as much weight as anyone else at the gym, including guys that outweigh me by almost 100lbs. Menace has lifts that would make anyone proud.
What sport are we talking about?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/24, 01:25 PM
Also, whats the name of the book/author? This I have to read to believe.
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2005/12/24, 02:21 PM
The book is called "Full Strength" by Werner Kieser. Other sources I've used for this are "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline and "Extreme Alpinism" by Mark F. Twight. "Full Strength" disagrees with the other two, saying that the "strength without muscle" theory is a myth. One thing that remains fairly constant is that most sources say that the "super slow" reps are the most evective, improving both slow and fast twitch muscles (this being another confusing subject for me).
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2005/12/24, 02:49 PM
Oh also, there's no particular sport i'm into right now but I'd say wrestling and climbing interest me. Really the whole weight training thing is to improve myself physically as much as possible. I really believe that high relative strength is superior to just high absolute strength. I'm also thinking of getting into yoga which I've heard many good things about.
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2005/12/24, 11:47 PM
I know pavel believes in strength without additional bulk, as I have read every one of his publicated books, as well as his articles.
Where does pavel say super slow reps??? Or any other well educated strength coach. Super slow reps will not build strength, although they may cause hypertrophy initially. Think about it... Fast twitch fibers, getting stimuli from slow exercises??? If you want to get fast and strong, train fast and heavy. The eccentric portion should be as powerful as possible, regardless of the weight. This is what westside is built around.
Look at competitive rock climbers. I've been climbing for just over a year now, and I am closing in on the one armed pull up (i figure I am about 40 lbs away). I know guys capable of doing one armed pull ups for repetitions, and these are small guys, whereas bigger guys can barely do as many two armed pull ups.
I have never heard of kieser or twight. As such, without proper credentials being provided (IE experiance and reasoning, never believe anyone in strength training unless they can tell you WHY!), I would be inclined to think other wise. Look to other coaches, pavel, waterbury, cosgrove, poliquin, king, davies, all guys that stress relative strength.
For both climbing and wrestling, you will want to build your pulling strength. Although, when I was climbing and wrestling, I only did one heavy pull up/row session a week.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/24, 11:53 PM
Are you german? Because I could find any information on this guy other than in german. Who is he? I've never had problems finding credentials for serious strength coaches.
Also, as best I can tell, the book is for people suffering from chronic back pain, not a guide to strength training.
I would recommend mel siff's SUPERTRAINING, it is considered THE book for strength building. It's a great way to get started. Look at other sites, you will see they recommend this book as well, and it is always held in high regard. Dr. Siff goes into great detail explaining not only how, but why. Some of the stuff is deep, but you could benefit from a few chapters.
I am glad that you at least took the time to do your research. Just make sure your research can be backed up, and make sure it makes sense.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/25, 10:19 AM
"Power to the People" has an entire section on why you should lift weights slowly. He says about 3-5 seconds for the positive phase and 3-5 seconds for the negative phase. Not trying to argue with you here, but I don't think that fast twitch fibres necessarily have to be stimulated with fast movements, but I could be wrong. This is actually a good example of why I'm confused alot of the time, one source saying one thing, another source disagreeing and me in the middle not knowing who to believe.
No I'm not German (I'm Canadian, Irish, English or Canirish as I like to call it). I actually found the "Full Strength" and "Extreme Alpinism" books on "Google.com book search" and later ordered them. The book actually is about strength training but relieving back pain is one of the advantages it talks about.
One more thing, what exactly is hypertrophy? This is a term that I've never come across.
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2005/12/25, 02:41 PM
hypertrophy is what you are looking to avoid. in simple english it's what every bodybuilder lives on .GROWIN BIGGER GAINING MUSLE SIZE
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2005/12/25, 09:10 PM
I don't think that hypertrophy would occur then with slow reps anymore than with fast reps unless you were training to muscle failure. Also, as far as fast and slow twitch muscle fibres go, I believe that the slow twitch function for endurance and fast twitch for power (as far as I know) but is it possible to train one without sacrificing another. In other words, can I steadily increase my endurance and my power, or do I have to pick one to specialize in?
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2005/12/26, 02:41 PM
3-5 seconds per portion is not the way to strength. Find me an elite level powerlifter or olympic lifter that got strong using slow reps.
Fast twitch fibers are activated by POWERFUL movements. Now, this can be lifting weights 90%+, which I would love to see you do a triple @ 90% slowly with a 5 second concentric, or by lifting lighter weights FAST (ala dynamic effort, plyometric, or olympic).
If you are having trouble finding sources that agree, that is because you are citing horrible sources. What the hell has this guy writing about back pain done in the strength world? If it was anything spectacular, someone would have heard about it.
Train heavy. Think about this when you think about endurance: who can bench 135 more times? someone that maxes @ 155, or someone that is benching 225? Simple, right?
I wrestled for 6 years, achieving success at the state and regional levels. The only endurance you need to worry about isn't muscular endurance, it is the ability to go a full 6 minutes. this is wear cardio (HIIT or complexes preferably) comes in.
Hypertrophy occurs moe with slow reps because the time under tension is greater. Greater tension = greater strength, greater TUT = greater hypertrophy. That is why bodybuilders traditionally do much higher reps than powerlifters and olympic lifters.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/26, 03:19 PM
Pavel's 3-5 second prescription is for safety and intensity. The average max effort (read: heavy) bench press takes 3 seconds, and a deadlift takes 5. But your intent should be on moveing quickly. Pavel compares this to "jerky". No, you are not attempting to jerk the weight up. That would be a powerclean, which is very effective at building speed and power. But when deadlifting the weight should be heavy enough that it takes that long to lock out. As with any other lift. I guess here, my dispute was with DELIBRATELY slow lifts. That was my misunderstanding. I should have explained myself better.
Besides, pavel's power to the people was his book written for the average american. Look to his more advanced books. He is mostly known for his stretching books, which brought PNF stretching into the forefront of the strength world. His website has some decent info, but hard to navigate.
That and Pavel has a sort of dogma around his followers (never blindly follow ANYONE.) Kettlebells are not a panacea.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/26, 04:10 PM
Also, could you give me a list of some of the books (authors/titles) that you've used to research the subject? Obviously you know quite a bit and if I used some of the sources you have, I could cut down on my questions here and stop annoying you guys. Thanks
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2005/12/27, 02:28 PM
Yes, if the weight is heavy, then obviously it is going to move slowly. I thought you were refering to the bodybuilding style of using submaximal weights and moving them slowly.
Mel Siff- Supertraining
Charles Poliquin- The Poliquin Principles
Alwyn Cosgrove- The Program Design Bible
For grapplers-
Martin Rooney- Training for Warriors (a bit repetitive, but has some tips on how to mold your program for mma or wrestling)
And anything online you can get your hands on.
there are many others, but these are the ones that stuck out in my head that I could think of off hand.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/30, 02:00 PM
One more thing (I hope). As I said before, "Wouldn't it make sense for the negative phase (the descent of the weight) of each rep to be somewhat slow like about three seconds. I figure that a quick negative would just be letting gravity do all the work."
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2005/12/30, 05:17 PM
The concentric phase is where muscle fibers are torn. A controlled decent is preferable, but a slow decent will make you unnecessarily sore. This is great for hypertrophy, not for strength.
Olympic lifters are pound for pound some of the strongest guys out there, and most of their lifts don't even have a concentric porion. That is how they can clean one day, snatch the next, and then hang clean on the third day, without overtraining.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/30, 05:28 PM
The concentric phase is where muscle fibers are torn. A controlled decent is preferable, but a slow decent will make you unnecessarily sore. This is great for hypertrophy, not for strength.
Olympic lifters are pound for pound some of the strongest guys out there, and most of their lifts don't even have a concentric porion. That is how they can clean one day, snatch the next, and then hang clean on the third day, without overtraining.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/02, 05:08 PM
Say that you’re doing some sort of activity that’s not specifically training, but it involved keeping your muscles under strain for awhile or it was something that involved a lot of repetitions and because of this you’re pretty sore. Is it possible to avoid hypertrophy by just burning off the excess calories even if the muscles have already been torn?
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2006/01/02, 11:03 PM
If you mean like physical labor, then don't worry... Hypertrophy will be minimal. Monitor your diet, and you will be fine. Try not to worry about it too much. I used to be exactly like you. My senior year in high school, I stopped cutting weight (didn't have to anymore), and I barely put on any weight. I was always afraid of it, but ask any bodybuilder, hypertrophy doesn't happen on accident.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/09, 04:14 PM
Something like physical labor, perhaps biking, climbing for an extended period of time or whatever. To avoid hypertrophy, should I be burning off all the calories I take in?
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2006/01/09, 04:51 PM
No, in fact, you should increase your maintainance level.
Like I said, stop worrying about it so much.
Why are you trying so hard to avoid gaining any weight. It would be easier to build a couple pounds of muscle, and then burn the fat off. Hypertrophy doesn't come easy.
Climbing???
It always amazes me how many climbers are afraid of gaining weight. Most of them gain a few pounds and their strength goes through the roof.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/09, 07:14 PM
That should be all. Thanks alot for the advice, you have no idea how much effort this saved me!!!
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2006/01/12, 01:12 PM
what about sets??? does increase maintenance mean eat more calories??? if your not trying to gain mass then how many calories should be taken in/pound and how many should be left over at the end of the day??
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2006/01/12, 02:31 PM
Yes, I mean to increase your caloric intake.
I'm going to give you two answers.
The textbook part of me says that to maintain your weight, you need to have an equal number of calories in as calories expended.
The realistic part of me would like you to know that there is no set number as to how many calories you should take in. What I would like to know, is how do you intend to measure your caloric intake and output well enough that you know precisely how many calories are left at the end of the day?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/13, 12:59 PM
80-90% x 1-4 x ?
how many sets??
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2006/01/13, 01:08 PM
The way to go about it is an average. Most folks don't eat the same thing every day. Monitor weekly. Take in the amount of calories you believe to be maintenance or thereabouts. Average this out at the end of the week. If you have neither gained or lost a lb., or in reality very close, you are indeed very close to your maintenance levels. This is the level that will keep you the same with your current energy expenditure levels.
You must learn your own body. I can stay at maintenance for any length of time I want, I know what keeps me there. There are no formulas that I recommend, other to than to get ballpark for beginning, then tweak to fit your needs. Too many variables going on in the body.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/01/20, 09:49 AM
but how many sets should be done per exercise?
im also wondering about certain home exercises like pushups. I can do about 50-60, but would an exercise with that many reps really do anything at all??
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2006/01/20, 05:14 PM
An advanced trainee (looking to build maximal strength) will respond well to 2-3 sets done in excess of 90% 1rm. Less experianced lifters can exceed this number, doing up to 6 sets in the 90% range.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/22, 01:23 AM
I thought that sets should generally be kept low (approximately 2-3) at any level of experience to prevent muscle gain. I suppose though as long as you're not training to failure and not taking in too many calories, it shouldn't be a problem.
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2006/01/22, 01:32 AM
I don't think that an exercise that you can do 55 reps of would really do much except perhaps build endurance. Do you train to failure with push-ups? Combined with an adequate amount of calories, that could build muscle. Try doing chest exercises at a gym with heavier weight and lower reps or use something like a weighted vest for your push-ups.
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2006/01/22, 06:36 AM
Gaining mass/muscle has to do with nutrition not training per se....
Advanced lifters need a lot of variety....intensity can be a factor of how much you're lifting or volume/frequency....
If any person just tries to maintain their bodyweight or slightly change their body composition...then all it requires is consuming the same amount of calories....hopefully all healthy/nutritious.......THAT'S IT!.....the answer is to do the same thing you always done...
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2006/01/22, 01:23 PM
You may have heard to keep the volume low to minimize hypertrophy, and this is correct, however, 3-5 sets in the 90% range is still low volume. I like to do 3-5 work sets per exercise.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/22, 02:08 PM
you did say that a novice should be using 80% 1rm yes?
how long should rest periods in between sets be?
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2006/01/22, 11:29 PM
A novice lifter will generally respond better to higher repetitions (siff, tsavorski (sp) king, poliquin). For a novice lifter, repetitions of 4-6 will show the greatest amount of strength. However, if trying to minimize hypertrophy, I would stick in the 1-3 rep range, and do most of your training in the 90%+ range. However, be warned, since you are practicing in ONE rep range, you will have to change exercise selection every 2-3 weeks to prevent plateauing.
Your body adapts quickest to rep range, so if you are not manipulating your rep range, then you will want to change your exercises.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/22, 11:33 PM
rest should be 3-5 minutes, as you will be working with a high intensity. Intensity and rest periods have a direct correlation.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/23, 01:54 AM
Have you guys ever heard of the "Freaky Big Naturally" training program by Wade Mcnutt and Matt Gallant? I've been doing this for the past 6 or so months and have seen huge gains in both size, weight, and strength. I was just wondering if anyone heard about it and if the guy actually knows what he is talking about. I know a few kids that have been doing it and they swear by it. I like the workout a lot, but since I haven't tried anything else I'm not sure if I could be doing better. My goal is more muscle building than strength training though.
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2006/01/23, 02:09 PM
Could you please explain plateauing and changing exercise selection a little more? I'm not exactly sure what you speak of.
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2006/01/23, 02:24 PM
plateauing is when you stop progressing and remain at your current state (strength, muscle, performance)for an extended period of time......
changing exercises involves substituing different exercises for the same muscle groups you're training....so instead of bench press you would do dips to train your chest.....instead of barbell rows you would do T-Rows......instead of Deadlifts you would do Snatch Deadlifts .....and so forth....different exercises/variation of exercises to keep your body guessing and not adapting to the stress you're putting it through...
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2006/01/23, 06:47 PM
excellent description...
redrider, your hijacking the wrong thread.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/29, 10:52 PM
way, way above menace you listed some effective exercises like power deadlifts, squats, snatches etc.
I dont' even have a clue how to do these exercises properly and I hear all the time about people in the gym who do them with improper form and blah blah blah...
how should I go about learning proper form??
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2006/01/29, 11:26 PM
#1 way is to get a competant coach to teach you these lifts...for example olympic lifts are quite complicated technique wise and a good coach will break down each exercise and teach segment at a time until you can put it together in the form of power cleans, clean and jerks, snatches or any variations which you use to build into these exercises (eg jump shrugs)...
Although squat, deadlift, and bench press variations are easier to teach, are still quite technical and still require proper instruction....this will assure that you don't learn improper form, develop muscle imbalances, or injure yourself(something I have done before stumbling on to proper technique through my own training..and I assure you that you don't want to go through the process of undoing all that you did wrong after the fact...it's a very long and challenging task)
Here's a website with video demonstrations of proper form of many of these exercises....explore that site for many more....I am posting the link to the olympic lifts and their segments...
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/PowerExercises.html
good luck
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2006/01/30, 10:40 PM
Proper form is something I've kinda worried about too. You said that a competant coach is necassary to teach you these lifts, so would that be along the lines of a personal trainer? I'm still attending highschool and there is a gym and many teachers/coaches there, but I question how "competant" they may be as alot of them seem to disagree with the methods of training posted on this thread. The site you listed was great (I was totally doing the deadlift wrong) but even with the help of that, I think that a teacher is necessary to really get perfect form down.
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2006/01/31, 01:46 PM
ok, this is going to be a long post...
Strength training without hypertrophy has two parts. One, there are two different types of predominant hypertrophy. Sarcormeric and Sarcoplasmic. Sarcomeric hypertrophy is the hypertrophy of contractile portion of the muscle, while sarcoplasmic is the hypertrophy of the non-contractile portion of the muscle, or the plasma. The only muscle fibers that can contract are the sarcomeric fibers. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy will not contribute to strength gains. So as we can see, there are two types of hypertrophy, sarcomeric being a form of functional hypertrophy, while sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is predominantly non-functional.
In addition, strength is only a result of Central Nervous System (cns) efficiency. You may have 2 billion muscle fibers in your left biceps, but if your cns can only activate half a billion of them, then you will obviously be significantly weaker than someone that can activate 1 billion of them.
You know those stories you hear of a woman lifting a car off her husband? This is just one example of cns efficiency. This is just one instance of the cns operating near full capacity. However, this requires stimuli in a variety of forms (adrenaline being the main stimulus).
So you see, if we choose to train the cns rather than train the muscle, we teach our body how to better recruit the muscle we do have, rather than build new muscle.
It is because of varying degrees of cns efficiency that a beginning powerlifter must be trained so significantly different than an elite level lifter. Lifting at 80% is much more physically taxing than lifting at 70%, so you can see that training must be adapted in this instance.
Understand? If not, ask questions.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/19, 05:51 PM
Finally starting to get back into the old routine, so another question has come up. "Pause and relax between reps" was something Pavel said and I was wondering if when the weight is at the lowest part of the concentric phase, if the muscles should be relaxed. If so, I've noticed that some exercises don't seem to allow that, flies for instance.
Also, like you said before, "the concentric phase is where muscle fibres are torn", but I'm still going for a controlled descent. How long approximately should the negative be?
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2006/02/19, 08:43 PM
About a second. Controlled, not timed. And for the record, the eccentric portion is the lowering motion, but you have the right idea.
Pausing will eliminate the stretch shortening cycle. For some exercises this is desirable, but when training for relative strength, it should generally be avoided.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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