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2006/01/06, 01:02 PM
I'm curious to know all of you all's thoughs about this....
I see many people trying to do lunges, before they can squat parallel, or do tons of flys and no benching.
So this can start either way....but heres a few things to get it started...( all of this is for somone who has NEVER, or very lil worked out before, so keep that in mind)
machines 1st....or free weights?
ball movements.....or loor stuff( abbs namly"
circuts......"normal workouts"
compound ...isolation?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/06, 01:03 PM
progresson* damit
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/06, 02:06 PM
I am not 100% sure that I understand your question but I assume your asking how we got started. I started on machines (actually, A machine). Now im on both machines and freeweights. Details are actually in my profile.
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2006/01/06, 02:25 PM
I prefer to start right off with freeweight compound exercises.....beginners can start off with just bodyweight and/or use partial ROM...if someone can't do an exercise for whatever reason, I try to substitute next best exercise....which is also freeweight and usually compound ...sometimes even using a variation of an exercise can do the trick....other things like machines , isolation exercises , cables , bands, etc...I would use only to supplement the workout..
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2006/01/06, 02:54 PM
dude you post your crap advertisement in a random post....get a clue
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2006/01/07, 02:33 PM
just playing divils advocate..
but why teach partial rom? why not full room?
( I meant this in the sense of , if you was a personal trainer, which I hope to be somtime in the future..just looking for opinions in the "right progression"
For example....I think one should be able to perform 90degree parallel squats before lunges.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/07, 03:47 PM
You would think that at first, but sometimes, it is easier to get that range of motion and build the stability/balance in a new trainee using lunges. I found many clients, females in particular, were to uncomfortable with body awareness to squat. So I had them do lunges, gradually increasing the range of motion in the lunge (by putting blocks under front foot), until they were comfortable enough to squat.
As for squatting to parallel, I found many women have an easier time going ATG than keeping their balance on a parallel squat. I use both, and feel both should be taught, even to a powerlifter, as there are advantages to each.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/07, 04:39 PM
true but I thought compound before isolation?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/07, 11:16 PM
Lunges are a compound exercise. What part of the body do you think lunges will isolate???
I know what you are saying though, however, its not applicable all the time. If I have a client that can squat AND lunge, then I teach the squat first. However, the lunge just happens to feel more comfortable to some, and this makes it easier to teach.
All ATHLETES need unilateral work, however the base for their strength should be a bilateral compound exercise, ie squat/deadlift.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/08, 02:00 AM
I can do proper lunges; I've never tried a squat - box or parallel or otherwise.
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2006/01/08, 03:08 PM
The progression for the squat is as follows
Lunges, gradually increasing ROM, then weight.
Dynamic lunges, to increase body awareness and muscular coordination.
Box squats
Parallel/ATG
As for your question involving ROM, yes it is better to start with a greater ROM, but then, it is also more beneficial to continue working with that ROM. Partial reps can be part of the learning curve, as if you do pursue PT andrew, you will have to know, you WILL meet guys that can't touch thier chest on bench, or squat to parallel with ANY stance.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/10, 01:08 PM
"As for your question involving ROM, yes it is better to "start with a greater ROM, but then, it is also more beneficial to continue working with that ROM. Partial reps can be part of the learning curve, as if you do pursue PT andrew, you will have to know, you WILL meet guys that can't touch thier chest on bench, or squat to parallel with ANY stance. "
There was people like that in highschool. 99% of the time it was just a flexability issue.
For those that couldn't go parallel, the coach put a 45lb plat under each heal...and had him squat to parallel. 2 weeks later, he went down to a 25, then 10, then 5, 2 1/2 eventually he was squatting parallel both feet flat.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/10, 01:59 PM
That is one such progression, but I would rather do mobility drills prior to squatting, and have the toes externally rotate before adding plates underneath the heels.
You are correct though, most of the time, it is a flexibility issue. I have chronically tight hip flexors, so if I don't statically stretch them before squatting, they inhibit my glutes from firing properly, and you want to see poor squat form? wow. Imagine trying to squat while barely using your glutes.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/10, 08:01 PM
another issue.....would you have a rookie stretch before?
Even though research shows not to?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/10, 08:01 PM
another issue.....would you have a rookie stretch before?
Even though research shows not to?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/10, 08:09 PM
opps sorry about double
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/10, 08:50 PM
If your refering to me talking about doing a static hip flexor stretch, that is an individual basis. Tight hip flexors can cause glute inhibition by the process of reciprical inhibition. Since the hip flexors are tight, it causes my glutes to not contract properly. It is a VERY common problem among athetes (probably the number 2 weakness after a week posterior chain). By statically stretching the hip flexors, they relax, which allows the glutes to fire properly.
Now, If your talking about me recommending mobility drills prior to squatting, this is not the same as what you are thinking of.
STATIC stretching prior to strength training is detrimental. This is because it inhibits the muscles from firing. However, I am refering to dynamic mobility drills: dynamic stretches done through an active range of motion.
Try going to t-nation.com and searching for "ten uses for a smith machine". It will give some examples. I do some of the mobility drills from the MMA dynamic warm up prior to fighting, and a couple of the abductor drills prior to squatting (working on squatting with a slightly wider stance).
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/10, 08:51 PM
Andrew, you ask good questions. You will make an excellent trainer. You truly know your stuff.
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2006/01/11, 08:25 PM
thanks appreciated,
Oh i know the differance in dynamic streching, i'm aware of that... I wasn't refering to you.....it poped in my head when you said it, like a loose train of thought. I see the trainers in my gym having them stretch thier calves and back and chest in between sets of bench squat calves etc.
I know theres a liabilty issue...but if its wrong its wrong? correct? thoughts?
However I am also aware some peopel may have aliments...and may need to stretch somthing out maybe? But I would of coarse ask of any of these before hand.
Would you have some one do just a dynamic warm up? Cause i never see this?
another things that pop to my head....that I don't agree with....alot of the trainers, have rookies start out by doing alot of super sets, not resting etc. Which i do like super sets, I think the person needs to slow down and "feel" whats going on.
However, I also know people want results, and fast.....so I can see why supper sets would work. However, I think that can lead to an injury. thoughts?
also, I see the trainers over using the the balls alot too...and having the person doing several excercises, weither it be abbs, chest etc. I think you need to successfully be able to "feel" your abs doing normal crunches, before you progress to machines, and balls.
thoughts?
Also I persoanlly liek alot of compound type moves....now I would never have someone do cleans or snatches cause the average joe/jane don't need to power clean( unless they asked) but how much is TOO functional for working out? Cause I know people like to think that tons of abbs and arms will get them what they want....over the squat engages over 200 muscles.....so to me it would make sense...to do some sort of this type movemnet since it would save time in the long run. thoughts?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/11, 08:34 PM
also....now I'm gonna be very VERY respectful of the Dl...since this prob I have has happened before. I'm now going to do some sort of trunk/back work every day....even if its just 20 back hypers before bed. Cause I don't like feeling like this.
Question is....the squat, deadlift,stiff dls. While all are great workout tools, all of which I do. However society and people have ruled them "dangerous." IF people go into these thinking they are dangerous...then they won't perform as well and may in fact hurt them selves.
I would never throw anyone under a squat rack and say do this. I'd probably spend 2-3 weeks devoloping the trunk and hammies to get ready for the movement. However Alot of people just want me to give them somthing to do to "tone" up. Should I chance It and show them the squat and dl and hope they do it right on their own.....or just make them do lunges and leg press?
I think the big lifts are like a car....they are only dangerous when you get "used" to them and let down your guard. Just like in drving, when you 1st learn how to, you watch every shadow....after a year or so, your doing 50 in a 30 zone talking on a cell? Thats how I see this.
So thoughts?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/11, 11:49 PM
I'm going to address your question of stretching between sets before I finish the rest of your posts...
Every study I have ever read has shown that most if not all injuries occur in a natural range of motion, so stretching does little, if anything in terms of injury prevention for resistance training.
That being said, I don't like definates, I believe many things get a negative dogma and are avoided like the plague, but I still feel everything has its place. Like static stretching. Some may cringe when I say I statically stretch my hip flexors prior to strength training due to all the literature showing how negative it is. However, it serves a purpose. There are reasons for it. So I do not like the statement "if its wrong its wrong".
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/11, 11:54 PM
I am yet to see a single trainer in a commercial gym train abdominals like they should be trained. If you get into the industry andrew, the first thing you are going to realize, is that a lot of what you see will make no sense to you. If it doesn't make sense... You're a smart guy, I trust you know how to form your opinions.
Now as for progression for abs, I feel that a client needs basic body awareness and strength before ever attempting "ab" exercises. I have never had a male client do abdominal work that couldnt at least squat bodyweight. The best work for abdominals will be squats and deadlifts. If they complain they wont ab work, have them do pull ups with a dumbbell between their legs. See how most of them feel the next day.
I like where this is going...
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/11, 11:57 PM
As a trainer you get an hour with a client. 10 minute warm up is usually mandatory.
You see them 3x per week, so most likely you will usually do TBT.
Do you have time for isolation movements?
Except for upper level bodybuilders and correcting imbalances, MOST clients should stick with an entirely compound based program. Now I say most as to indicate there will be exceptions.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 12:37 AM
Training a client isn't like training yourself. You have to balance what is optimal with what is feasible. Know this.
Honestly, every client I have ever had has box squatted with me by their second session. I have never had a problem.
Every now and then, you will get a client that will complain about your training methods or question you. THIS IS A GOOD THING. This shows that you have a client that is thinking. This is your oppurtunity to show off what you know, and explain.
After a while, you will get a reputation for getting results. This is more important than what anyone thinks. After this, most of your sessions will start to be referels. This is great, because then you have something to back you up.
Once again, I really like where this thread is going. Keep the situations coming, this thread is becoming sort of like an FAQ for trainers.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 11:52 AM
usually on a box squat your going a lighter bit lighter to work on speed. Plus, when you sit you release tension on the quads, then reingage them to stand up. Squats have a constanst tension to them, especially when some bodybuilder don't stand all the way up.
Kinda like doing a wall sit, with just the wall, and sitting in a chair.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/12, 12:06 PM
Another thing I see alot of that goes along with "the trunk"....notice I said not core lol.
Do you think wall squats on a ball are good to teach squat form? or should it be completly free?
Cause I think that teaches them to squat leaning back...instead of sitting back.
So under what circumstances is stretching permitted? old injuries?. I know somtimes when my hams are tight I DO have to stretch inbwetween sets on squats. Or it hurts.
Sorry I shoulda used a different wording besides "if its wrong its wrong"
When do you break the rules of studies, and norm?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/12, 02:57 PM
Andrew is right. However, it gets more in depth than that. Have you taken physics?
The portion of the lift that is the most damaging to muscle fibers is the change from concentric to eccentric. This is where the greatest amount of tension is. Also, the eccentric portion is what causes micro tears in the muscle fibers. Not only does a box squat lesson the stress on the eccentric, but it eliminates the change from concentric to eccentric. This makes a MAJOR difference.
The yankees strength coach has some of them box squat in the morning on days they have games. I have heard as little as 12 hours, but I still like to take 48 in between training, even with speed squats.
Box squats are the primary squat used (different heights, bars, means of accomidating resistance) when strength is the goal.
Box squats are a part of the progression when mass is the goal.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 03:00 PM
I think wall squats on a ball are a terrible thing. Any idea what kind of shearing force this puts on your patellar tendons? My aunt had a trainer that was doing these with her, I told her to stop. 3 days later, no knee pain. Miserable exercise. Like I said, I like box squats to teach. If not, then build strength first.
BNS puts out a band meant for teaching the squat properly. I have no personal experiance with it, but I would recommend it over a lot of other methods.
Your dead on about leaning back vs. sitting back.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 03:05 PM
When do I break from the norm? All the time. I am extremely outspoken. But, I will listen to anyone.
You have to know when to do what. I have NEVER put a client on a regurgitated program. Everything needs to be tailored. I am assuming that when you say you want to be a PT, you mean an upper level PT. Not some guy at the gym that hands out routines.
I do mobility drills whenever I feel an individual needs to loosen up before an exercise.
I do dynamic flexibility stretches whenever flexibility is an issue.
I do static stretching whenever there is a muscle tightness that is preventing a muscle from firing properly. The most common example of this is tight hip flexors inhibiting glutials. I personally think that all athletes should statically stretch their hip flexors prior to activity, or they are holding themselves back in performance. Joe DeFranco, Alwyn Cosgrove, Todd Wilson, Fred Hatfield, all come to mind when I say this.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 03:06 PM
When do I break from the norm? All the time. I am extremely outspoken. But, I will listen to anyone.
You have to know when to do what. I have NEVER put a client on a regurgitated program. Everything needs to be tailored. I am assuming that when you say you want to be a PT, you mean an upper level PT. Not some guy at the gym that hands out routines.
I do mobility drills whenever I feel an individual needs to loosen up before an exercise.
I do dynamic flexibility stretches whenever flexibility is an issue.
I do static stretching whenever there is a muscle tightness that is preventing a muscle from firing properly. The most common example of this is tight hip flexors inhibiting glutials. I personally think that all athletes should statically stretch their hip flexors prior to activity, or they are holding themselves back in performance. Joe DeFranco, Alwyn Cosgrove, Todd Wilson, Fred Hatfield, all come to mind when I say this.
I do PNF stretching whenever flexibility is an issue or goal.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 03:27 PM
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Quoting from wrestler125:
I have never had a male client do abdominal work that couldnt at least squat bodyweight. The best work for abdominals will be squats and deadlifts. If they complain they wont ab work, have them do pull ups with a dumbbell between their legs. See how most of them feel the next day.
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Wrestler, wouldn't a strong core and abs lead to better squats and deadlifts? Shouldn't one have a strong core before they attempt deads or squats?
t
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2006/01/12, 03:59 PM
I just saw this thread, and as someone who started "cold" with a trainer, I thought I'd give you my experience.
When I joined my gym about 2 years ago, I immediately got a trainer to avoid doing myself damage. The sessions are 1 hour long and I did a 5min warmup before the hour started so we were ready to go. We always started the sessions with walking lunges or squats to warm up. He started me with mostly machines and focused on compound moves with some isolation moves. The focus was always on form--I heard chest out, shoulders back, butt back in my sleep for weeks--I had a bad habit of letting my shoulders sneak up to take the load. He constantly corrected my form and made sure I was checking it myself in the mirror. I think many trainers start women on the machines because it is less intimidating and easier to use on your own. We did ball squats (I agree with wrestlers opinion on these), box squats, walking lunges, rows, pec flies and chest presses with db's along with abs, pushups and back ext. The workouts always varied. He often suggested variation on moves to accommodate a bum shoulder, which I could incorporate into my own workouts.
The next series of sessions I took about 4 months later-same trainer, he tended to do more circuit routines. Still focused mostly on compound moves, but I progressed to smith squats, HS chest press along with chest and arm work with db's. Asst pullups, lat pull downs and rows. Again the routine was varied from week to week. ( I only took 1 session / week and worked out on my own 2 others days a week) Again, his focus was always on form-occasionally we'd try a full barbell bench press-at my request, but due to a bum shoulder we would usually give up on these-my stabalizers were still too weak. He also introduced me to SL DL's.
The next series..again probably 4 months later, he again focused on circuit training, which I see most of the trainers now seem to do these days. Again he always watches my form--however, I'm not corrected as much, since I think I've finally got it down. Still doing mostly compound moves, but more free weights and I began barbell squats. I don't use any of the "circuit" machines anymore.
I'm sure I've missed out on a lot of other things he's taught me, but I just want to say that trainers seem to get a bum wrap on this site and not all are bad. I go to a fairly large gym where the trainers take A.C.E, I believe. They are all knowledgeable and conscientious and I'd be happy to be trained by any of them. I think a lot depends on the client. I see my trainer with some long term clients, and they seem to spend more time chatting than working out, but maybe that's what the client wants?!? I think a more enthusiastic and knowledgable client will get a better workout.
Just my experiences and since Andrew asked I thought I'd oblige. Sorry for the novel:)
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Even if you are on the right track, you will get run over if you just sit there.
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2006/01/12, 05:51 PM
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Quoting from TimDay:
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Yes, but if a male athlete is weak enough that they can not squat their own bodyweight, do you really feel that abs are what are holding them back? I do not think so. Our primary concern here isn't abdominal weakness, it is total body weakness. I am of the impression that squats and deadlifts are two of the best trunk exerises you can do.
Would you have someone do leg curls before squatting? Then why would you have them train their abdominal without them having at least a certain base level of overall strength.
Now notice I said male athletes. This is not a definate though. I may do abdominal work before squats, but this is all on a case by case basis.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/12, 05:55 PM
At what point would you consider, then, doing the abs before the squats and DL's?
Good thread.
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I am training for birthdays.
Be here. Live. Love. Hope. Now. Faith. Believe. You. - Keith Urban
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2006/01/12, 06:02 PM
Checking form in a mirror, at least while squatting, is one of the worst things you can do. I train 6 months of the year surrounded by mirrors. I tape a piece of paper on the mirror to focus on while squatting.
ACE is bs. Probably more so than even some other organizations. Now I say this, as a fully accreditted ACE trainer.
A lot of clients will pay just to talk. Especially some of the older clients. If that is what they want, then fine. But I do not come cheap.
EVERYTHING depends on the client. I can not stress this enough. There are times when you may prescribe something that goes against everything you think you know. Everyone is different, has different needs, react to volume, intensity, and frequency differently, have different physiological and kinesiological reactions.
When it comes to trainers, I tell it like it is. I have 3 certifications, and not one of them means shit. Not one of them have gotten me where I got hear. You may have gotten lucky with a good trainer, but I worked in the industry, as have other members of this board, and I just want it to be known that that card in my wallet means nothing.
Flyonthewall... This isn't what you want to hear, but I am very good at saying it anyways. Most, if not all trainers, are very very good at MAKING YOU THINK THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. I could write an article with the mistakes I see in your post. Not to start anything, but there was one trainer at my gym I hated. EVERY client would do their whole workout on a med ball, bosu ball, and swiss ball. I heard more than one of his clients "Well, hes a great trainer, he really knows what hes doing, but I'm just not seeing any changes"
Well then, he's not very good then is he?
I am glad you had a positive experiance, but this isn't the norm in gyms in america.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/13, 05:16 PM
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Quoting from TimDay:
At what point would you consider, then, doing the abs before the squats and DL's?
Good thread.
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If the client in question has such poor trunk stability that squats and DL would would not be helpful.
You have to do an assessment with each client. If your client can barely walk upright, then obviously their abdominals and lower back are not ready for spinal compression.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/13, 05:25 PM
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Quoting from null:
What about the eccentric part of the lift that makes it so damaging on the muscle fibers?
Wrestler what would you recommend to learn good mobility drills and dynamic/passive stretching exercises? any favorite books/resources?
What does BNS stand for? I have seen it mentioned before in other places but the acronym is not explained. Also while on the subject of acronyms, what does PNF stand for?
Also I try to squat with my training partners but they have trouble maintaining balance. They almost fall backwards. They use small plates or rubber mats under heels. What surprises me is that they have trouble going down deep/keeping heels on the ground even with very wide stances. What would you recommend as a fix?
Thanks in advance.
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EXCELLENT questions.
Unfortunately, not all easy to answer... The eccentric portion of the lift is the portion where your muscles are "giving" in to the weight. There is some physiology behind it, but this causes microtears in the muscle fiber. While this is how muscle grows, this can also lead to overtraining with too much frequency. Also, myofibrillar hypertrophy is not built from these tears, so it is not always beneficial for an athlete with relative strength goals.
BNS is a company. Criticalbench.com. or strengthcats.com.
PNF stands for proprioceptive neuro facilitation (?). See why its an acronym. It is the most effective form of stretching for flexibility and mobile strength gains. There are many forms of it.
As for your partners, they clearly have horrible form. Find a lifter in your gym squatting heavy and DEEP. Wait for said lifter to finish his/her workout (this is important) and then ask. Most experianced lifters will be happy to help you. This might not be the best alternative, but its better than nothing.
The most common problem I see with lifters that have to put plates under their heels (other than technique) is poor glute strength/flexibility.
The best place for flexibility advice is, believe it or not, a mixed martial arts and no hold barred fighting forum. Sherdog.com. Check it out, but don't start a new thread, its been discussed, search for stretching, and a variety of posts with other places to learn will pop up. This will also explain PNF.
As for mobility drills, I recommend Mike Robertson's and Eric Cressey's Magnificient Mobility. The MMA Dynamic warm up is another excellent set of mobility drills.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/13, 06:34 PM
Wrestler any solution for a friend of mine who can't seem to grasp the form of box squats?....I try to get him to 'sit back and then down' on a low box(below parallel)...However even with a wide stance he is falling backwards....I had him put plates under his heels which allowed him to get down low enough....somewhat like my problem with narrow stance....is it glute or calf flexibility?
Also would it make sense to do box squats with wide stance for reps of 2-3 a for a few sets.....after doing ME bench?
this is turning into a very good thread.....
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2006/01/14, 11:25 AM
Actually, I have an excellent suggestion that I just used recently. Try taking two bands, and tieing one end of each band to the front of the rack. Tie the bands together, and put it behind his back, this way he will be able to sit back without falling back. Gradually bring the box closer to the front of the rack (progression) so that the bands are applying less tension each time.
A lot of times, it is a combination. You see, calf flexibility is part of it, but usually only when the glutes are tight. The gluteals stretch more than any of your other muscle groups in the squat. If you have tight gluteals, then you can't sit back properly, maintain an arch, etc. Since said person can not sit back properly, to maintain their balance, their knees come forward more, to bring the whole body forward, to change the center of gravity. When the glutes are tight, the center of gravity with a proper squat is too far back. This isn't an extremely common problem, but it can hold one back. Similairly, weak glutes can cause the same issue. If the glutes aren't strong enough to support the weight while sitting back, then the nervous system won't allow the muscles to stretch. Sometimes its just a confidence issue. Think about it, if you don't feel comfortable in a certain position, do you really think your nervous system is going to allow you to generate maximum force from that position.
Calf flexibility is more often an issue, but it is less likely to hold one back on the squat.
It took me over a year to be able to squat to parallel. I can now get almost any one to parallel within 3 weeks (with weight).
As for box squatting after ME Bench, depends on a lot of factors, you know that... What would be the goal? Westsi de does it with any one of the lifts if one is lagging. 3X3 or something for 3 sets, at the end of a regular workout for a lagging lift. Or 1X100, just to get blood in and speed recovery.
However, when doing this, they do it SE, so the weight is usually 66-75%. I do SE on my deload weeks. Volume is always the same, but different parameters, ie 4X6, 6X4, 8X3, etc.
This is like an FAQ for trainers.
I've got a question for you guys...
A friend of mine was recently argueing about the importance of a warm up. Now I do a very calculated warm up when I am training someone (even if I don't always practice what I preach :( ). Now his reasoning is this, and I have heard this else where (some russian): If you are in the woods, and a bear attacks you, you will not be able to warm up, so you should get your body used to performing without a warm up.
My reasoning is this: If a bear attacks me in the woods, I am not going to try and powerclean it.
Besides, I don't know if I agree with the point that the body can be made to perform cold any better by training without a warm up.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/14, 04:10 PM
I am box squatting after ME bench just to bring up my hip strength a bit...it's going to be fairly light weight even at low reps...don't think I can go too much past 315lb...
The band idea is excellent...I'll try to have my friend try it out...he's so tall and it's very awkward for him.....tho I got him to doing 135 for reps of 5 last time.....he maxed around 265@6'6 and 205 on normal back squats close to the ATG style with wide stance and around 235 on front squats(at least before 3 week lay off..:()
Today I think I might try something different for bench and do 10x10...will see how it works...I am thinking of using 225...and keeping rest periods to about 2 minutes....
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2006/01/14, 06:07 PM
Thats awesome.
Have you read poliquins german volume training?
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2006/01/14, 06:38 PM
I have not...but it seems like...no matter what crazy thing I try, someone already did something along those lines...LOL
I guess it would be a good idea...to read it....lol...does he have a website with his articles?
I was dead after 10x10...but I got through it...didn't think I would at first..as the fatigue set in after first few sets...and lol@this guy my size quarter repping 135 for bench while grunting loudly....I almost started laughing midset when I needed my concentration the most....and was walking like a peacock around the gym....after which he went to the squat rack...the only one... I am thinking F....I need to do my box squats...but no worries ...squats? wtf is that? he proceeded to do barbell curls with like 5lbs and then left....at least he didn't grunt while doing the curls....cuz he was standing on the holy ground...and you get b.slapped for doing that....gotta love some basketball players...
I shouldn't have done any box squats midthrough bench....esp high rep sets...because they drained me....but live and learn....thanks for all the suggestions wrestler...
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2006/01/14, 08:43 PM
I trust you know who poliquin is...
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm
If you search t-nation, he has an article "Advanced German Volume Training", that refines his approach.
Thank me when you get results...
What do you guys think of my warming up paradox?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/14, 09:33 PM
I should mention that poliquin wrote the article, but not the workout...
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
============
Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/15, 03:25 PM
Is he having trouble sitting down period? or just going that low? Raise the box up a little bit if you need to and work your way down. Usually if I start out with 5 stands afer abour 3 or 4 sets I can go down to 4 maybe even 3( which is prety low.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/15, 03:26 PM
So to acess ones trunk strength....would you use the board test....and go from their about how the routines should be set up?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/15, 09:58 PM
I go through a full assessment my first day with any client.
My prefered method is the overhead squat, however, many clients do not have the required shoulder flexibility to do these properly. If they do, than this can be an excellent indicator.
Other than that, an experianced weight lifter can usually tell you when your trunk strength is holding you back. No, I don't do a bosu ball circuit and monitor whether their feet rotate externally, but a beginner client doesn't need this. I'm not paul chek, and I feel no need to spend a day and a half assessing a clients "core" strength.
However, very few clients are so lacking in trunk strength that it should be a priority in training from the start. It should be a byproduct of training.
If I start to notice that it is becoming a problem, then I add in extra trunk work. An example would be hips coming up first in the squat, or lower back rounding in the deadlift. You will know what to look for when you see it andrew.
Basicly, just put your client throught a total body workout, and watch them. I am always assessing my clients, but no, I do not do special "tests". If you know what you are doing, you won't have to.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/16, 04:59 PM
Here's an example of what I mean... A lot of people feel the delayed leg lowering test and the board test are THE test for abdominal strength...
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Validation of an abdominal muscle strength test with dynamometry.
Ladeira CE, Hess LW, Galin BM, Fradera S, Harkness MA.
College of Allied Health, Health Profession Division, Physical Therapy Program, Nova Southeastern University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33328, USA. cladeira@nova.edu
Adequate abdominal strength prevents work- and sports-related injuries and stabilizes the spine for athletic activities. The double-leg-lowering maneuver (DLLM) is a popular test to assess abdominal strength because of its simplicity; however, its validity and reliability have not been studied thoroughly. To determine the validity and reliability of the DLLM, 4 examiners evaluated 28 subjects. The validity of the DLLM was evaluated with the Nicholas Hand-Held Dynamometer (NHHD) as the gold standard. The DLLM scores were compared to themselves for reliability and to NHHD scores for validity. Reliability for the DLLM was very high (r = 0.932). Validity of the DLLM was low (r = -0.338 to -0.446). The DLLM is reliable, but it has low validity to assess abdominal strength. The DLLM may be a useful tool to assess pelvic tilt motor control for spine stability, but it is not suitable for assessing muscle strength.
*****
You know what will assess muscle strength? The squat.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/16, 08:11 PM
exactlly over 200 muscles worked
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/01/17, 11:41 AM
See alot of trainers making thier clients do super sets?
I personally think thats fairly advanced?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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