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2008/02/27, 09:03 AM
1. Can it be done on lifting days?
2. How much rest does it require?
3. Could it be done it place of a dynamic lifting session?
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2008/02/27, 10:12 AM
1. Depends on your workload on lifting days.
2. Depends on how much you do.
3. Depends on your preference.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/27, 12:20 PM
I suppose a better question would be, how taxing, as a general rule, are plyometrics?
I had the idea of lifting in the early morning five times a week and doing other activities, such as plyometrics, in the afternoon following. Reading around the forums, I noticed it being recommended about once or so a week, which comes across as strangely infrequent to me.
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2008/02/27, 01:37 PM
They are recommended that infrequently because they are pretty taxing.
They are also usually only recommended to more advanced trainees. They are taxing on the nervous system, and generally train the ability to produce a rate of force development. If the force you are producing, however, is low, then it doesn't matter how fast you achieve that maximal level, it still won't be that explosive.
Seeing that you squat 170 (I assume that is lbs in your profile, and an olympic depth squat), I'd carefully evaluate if plyometric ability is what is holding you back, and whether it needs to be a daily focus for you.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/29, 04:22 PM
Well, yes, you could train more often if you didn't lift heavy every time. I think that's the point he's getting across - your CNS cannot handle 5-day heavy lifting and you still make progress.
If you want to train heavy EVERY time, probably 3 maximum
In terms of the hypertrophy and caloric surplus, just eat good. Eat REALLY good. Eat clean and frequently. What you do the other 96% of your day that you aren't at the gym will have huge effect on your results. That doesn't mean you have to eat a load, just get some good quality nutrient-dense food, drink enough water, and get quality sleep. It's not like you're gonna blow up huge from changing your reps around a bit instead of going heavy every time.
What exactly are your goals? Pardon my ignorance here. Are you wanting to compete in powerlifting, or just want to get into different kinds of strength training to challenge yourself?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/27, 08:41 PM
To be honest, I haven't actually been squatting recently at all; that was a number I achieved quite some time ago. I've really just been dead lifting lately...and not updating my profile...
Perhaps plyometric ability is a limiting factor in my case, though I do find that as far as running and jumping go, I seem to be better off than most people, not that that necessarily means anything.
I'll admit that explosive training, weight lifting or otherwise, hasn't really been a part of my training lately...
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2008/02/27, 11:47 PM
How much do you weigh? If you haven't been squatting, and 170 was a number that you used to it, and you jump decent, I would think that your speed is not the issue as much as strength.
What are your DL numbers like?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/27, 11:47 PM
used to hit*
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/28, 10:42 AM
Oh... well if you've hit 180 since then, then I'm sure you'll be ok.
Get stronger. It will make you faster.
Also, as far as I remember, you were training for relative strength. Why are you training 5 days a week then?
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/28, 01:54 PM
At about 140, I'm hitting 270-280 in the deadlift for one rep.
What's wrong with training 5 times a week?
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2008/02/28, 01:58 PM
Oh, and actually I havn't been training that often; that was just my plan. I've just set up a gym and I'm still getting into the swing of things as far as balancing other obligations alongside training.
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2008/02/29, 02:40 AM
There's not necessarily anything wrong with training that often, though it may not be the best idea. Everything is relative and dependent upon something else.
I'm no expert on powerlifting, but if you're at 140, jump well, and your squat is a max of 170, the first thing that comes to my mind to recommend you is definitely not plyometrics, but to get your squat up. 280 would be a good number to shoot for.
It's not that there's anything wrong with plyos, but like Steve said, getting stronger will help your speed, and there's a lot of room for improvement in your squat strength. Squats may not be jump-specific, and while the strength may not translate into jumping/speed coordination immediately, it eventually will, and that strength will greatly aid your explosiveness...not to mention your joint health
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/29, 11:52 AM
Because training heavy, >90%, 5 days a week, will leave your nervous system in the shitter.
Your nervous system doesn't recover as well as your muscular system. That's why bodybuilders can train much higher volume, while a powerlifter would burn out on the same amount of volume.
Last I remember, you were trying to avoid hypertrophy, and I don't know how you plan on doing this while gaining strength and lifting 5 days a week.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/29, 02:06 PM
What about mixing it up a little? Could I acheive this training frequency by not training heavy evertime? If not, what would be a more reasonable number to shoot for?
As for avoiding mass, I simply don't think I have the calorie surplus for it. Though I really wouldn't mind a tad more upper body mass.
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2008/02/29, 05:53 PM
No worries; I don't expect anyone to memorize my own personal goals. Not to mention that I don't really ever update my profile here; I'll get around to it one of these days.
I'm not terribly interested in competing in strength based sports, but I'm of course a fan of the results that strength training has on other athletic endeavors. Being very strong and fast is enough for me. As I've mentioned many, many times before, I don't want to get "bulky", although much to my dismay, I already have freakishly huge legs, so I especially don't want to add any more mass down there.
Sure, it's obsessive and slightly illogical, but they're my goals.
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Quoting from arondaballer:
What exactly are your goals? Pardon my ignorance here. Are you wanting to compete in powerlifting, or just want to get into different kinds of strength training to challenge yourself?
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2008/03/01, 12:24 AM
Unless your a freak of nature, don't worry about getting bulky. Getting bulky is what bodybuilders have to bust their butts for and still can't achieve sometimes, so I doubt you'll do it by accident.
What sports are you into? What do you do a lot?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/03/01, 12:02 PM
It's not that I don't think you could train 2 days heavy and 4 days lighter, or 3 and 3... it's that I don't think this would be the most time effective. I would keep it to 3 heavy sessions and some recovery/prehab work.
I'm not sure what else you would do that wouldn't add to the potential to hypertrophy.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/01, 02:26 PM
Precautionary measures that I've taken are making sure that my overall activity level throughout the day is relatively high as to limit my calorie surplus. To be honest, I figure the whole "leg thing" was just me getting screwed in the genetic sweepstakes, and I can't imagine, given my current measurements that I'd be at much risk for adding anything else substantial.
Having said that, I am taking in to account your input on training frequency; I do agree, but I think that I'll experiment with that a little. Perhaps a Mon, Wed, Thurs, Fri, with 2-3 heavy days.
As for sports, I like to practice MMA, and I'm also into things similar to parkour (ie: climbing, running, jumping, overcoming obstacles)
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2008/06/05, 12:31 AM
Just on the subject of plyometrics in general, when exactly is an exercise considered plyometric? It's my understanding that "plyometric" simply refers to an exercise that is meant to improve speed of contraction, but does this mean that things like olympic style lifting or sprinting would be considered plyometric?
Apologies for digging up an old post.
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2008/06/06, 03:08 PM
A plyometric refers to an exercise that involves a rapid loading and a forceful contraction in immediate series. Sprinting is plyometric in nature, and to a small degree so is OLY lifting, but only in the catch phases.
It most commonly refers to various jumping exercises, such as depth jumps.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/06/06, 04:20 PM
Would clapping pushups then be considered plyometric? What about things like squat jumps and box jumps? I'm just asking because I read an article on how tennis players should do plyometrics to improve speed/endurance with all the stop/starting, and I'd never heard of plyometrics before.
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2008/06/06, 07:35 PM
Clapping push ups are generally considered plyometric, though the eccentric should be very fast until reversing the motion if it's done right. Squat jumps are less plyometric in nature since the decent is generally slow. Box jumps (stepping off one box and jumping as soon as you hit the ground) is the most common form of specifically plyometric exercise.
Generally the less time you spend on the ground and reversing the motion, the more plyometric something is. Don't think in terms of is or isn't, plyometric isn't a thing, it's an adjective that can be of different degrees.
And plyometrics are rarely used to improve endurance. I would advise directly against using highly plyometric exercises in any kind of high volume. I'd recommend limiting box jumps, etc to less than 30 ground contacts.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/06/06, 08:03 PM
What do you mean by "rapid loading"?
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2008/06/06, 09:19 PM
Ok, thanks!
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2008/06/06, 10:17 PM
Tinnuk, rapid loading just means a fast eccentric phase (the "lowering" phase).
For example, the loading phase of a jump would be the descent. The muscles are being loaded quickly and are followed by a forceful contraction.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/06/06, 10:38 PM
Thanks, Aron.
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2008/06/08, 08:47 PM
Aaron is exactly correct. Since you are trying to reduce the time you spend on the ground, you are only "loading" the muscles for a fraction of a second.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/06/08, 09:16 PM
So in order for an exercise to be considered plyometric, do you need to leave the ground?
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2008/06/09, 09:28 AM
No, but since leaving the ground usually means there is no load, and then coming into contact with the ground means sudden loading, it's a common property.
An olympic lift can be considered plyometric with regards to the catch. Some lifters do leave the ground, but since you are dropping under the bar faster than the bar is dropping, and then catch it fully loaded before standing up with the weight, it is rapid loading that can be considered plyometric. Of course, since the bar is more flexible in olympic lifting, and most competitors do not squat the weight up immediately after the catch, it isn't entirely plyometric.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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