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2005/01/28, 11:02 AM
I just got some multi-vitamins but as i was looking through the different choices i had, there were so many different vitamins! Im not sure what to get and what i need. If anyone can fill me in with some info about vitamins that would be great!
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2005/01/28, 02:23 PM
I would just take a complete one-a-day multi-vitamin. Centrum is a brand that comes to mind.
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Lift. Eat. Rest. Gain.
~Brad~
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2005/01/28, 03:15 PM
An interesting fact about Centrum: When tested in the "gold-standard" vinegar test, the entire pill was still intact.
This means that it would do the same in your stomach and simply pass through, completely or partially undigested. Another point to make is the percentages of vitamins and minerals present in each serving...if it's not in correct proportions with the amount of REAL nutrients your recieving then there are some problems here.
You have now basically tricked your body into thinking that you ate 3 or 4 or even 5lbs of meat in one sitting with how much b12 they usually put in many of these suppliments. Do you honestly believe that your body is designed or even capable of digesting that much b12 or calcium or vitamin a, etc. etc. etc. in one massive dose?
True, if your body was ONLY directing attention and energy to digestion there is a possiblity that it could assimilate all of it. But let's be honest with ourselves, is there ever a time when your body diverts it's energy and attention to only ONE process in your body? I hope you said no, because if this was the case, then your brain functions would stop, your heart would stop, your central nervous system would shut down, etc.
Oddly enough, when research is done on suppliments, most of it is done with this type of logic! No wonder their studies show that taking 200% of the recommended dose of calcium shows a positive change....in a petry dish! One more key note: these are cheap, synthetic version of nutrients that Mother Nature has already perfected. I always have to throw that in with any post that I do on suppliments.
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2005/01/28, 03:18 PM
So your against Vitamins as well?
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Quoting from nellyboy:
An interesting fact about Centrum: When tested in the "gold-standard" vinegar test, the entire pill was still intact.
This means that it would do the same in your stomach and simply pass through, completely or partially undigested. Another point to make is the percentages of vitamins and minerals present in each serving...if it's not in correct proportions with the amount of REAL nutrients your recieving then there are some problems here.
You have now basically tricked your body into thinking that you ate 3 or 4 or even 5lbs of meat in one sitting with how much b12 they usually put in many of these suppliments. Do you honestly believe that your body is designed or even capable of digesting that much b12 or calcium or vitamin a, etc. etc. etc. in one massive dose?
True, if your body was ONLY directing attention and energy to digestion there is a possiblity that it could assimilate all of it. But let's be honest with ourselves, is there ever a time when your body diverts it's energy and attention to only ONE process in your body? I hope you said no, because if this was the case, then your brain functions would stop, your heart would stop, your central nervous system would shut down, etc.
Oddly enough, when research is done on suppliments, most of it is done with this type of logic! No wonder their studies show that taking 200% of the recommended dose of calcium shows a positive change....in a petry dish! One more key note: these are cheap, synthetic version of nutrients that Mother Nature has already perfected. I always have to throw that in with any post that I do on suppliments.
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2005/01/28, 06:00 PM
I'm a hard-core holistic man...I live in Utopia! LOL
Seriously though, I am a firm believer that Mother Nature will always do a better job at providing optimal nutrition than Met-Rx, EAS or even the more reputable companies like USANA and APEX could ever do.
Like I said in this post, your body was not designed to recieve that much of ANY nutrient at one shot. Also if you look into how they manufacture these products and where they get their "nutrients," from you might think twice about puting it into your mouth. I'm not saying any of you are wrong or stupid for doing this, you're just trying to be healthier and I respect every single one of you for that.
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2005/01/29, 08:25 AM
I thought I was the only wierd lefty who was concerned about vitamin supplements!
My main worry is that we may not yet be fully aware of all the micronutrients in food that we require for health, and if we get our vitamins in a pill rather than from food, then we may miss out on these vital micronutrients. With the best will in the world, I think it is easy to get a little lazy with the diet if you have the back up of your multi vit. although obviously some people manage fine)
There are a few exceptions, where taking a single supplement in addition to trying to get all nutrients from food may be of benefit. Folic acid supplements for expectant mums or those with high homocysteine levels would be an example.
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2005/01/29, 04:38 PM
Well, I am against you both. I am a firm believer in nutritional supplements(vitamins). I do have a theory about them though...of course whole foods are your best way to get them, such as your vit. E sources, they contain all eight essentials. Just as if you figure out what the best calcium absorbtion would consist of, you need Vit. D, some protein, carbs, etc., and guess what, you keep coming back to milk. So, it would make sense to take vitamins with food sources that contain those vitamins for maximal absorbtion. For instance take your calcium with milk, take zinc with red meat, maganesium/potassium with leafy greens, etc.
We as bodybuilders, who are traumatizing our bodies on a daily basis need added nutrients. We need extra B vitamin, we need extra E, etc. If you do not get these, you are selling your gains and life short. Free radical damage is magnified with us.
The basis of a long life is a healthy immune system. We need vitamins, but not just any wal mart vitamins. I have been into nutrition for well over 25 yrs. I never ever get sick in any way, have not been to a doctor in I bet 10 yrs. I am 53 and still do what 20 yr. olds do and more. Vitamins and minerals are a must for most people, maybe even moreso for sedentary folks. We can get into this one if you like, I am game and ready!
And, as Princess says, she is right on with her assesment of folic acid. Digging into research, this case is made for many supplemensts. If you choose 1 like this, how can you overlook the others?
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/01/29, 05:24 PM
good points to make and we'll just have to agree to disagree since you've had so much success with suppliments and i'm pretty much set in my beliefs. but you know me, i'm up for a good debate anytime!
you stated in your post about taking suppliments with milk. if you've read any of my previous posts on milk, you probably know where i'm going with this one. the primary reason i'm against pasteurized/homogenized milk is the lack of digestive enzymes available in the milk. in fact most manufacturers don't consider milk to be truly pasteurized unless all of the enzymes are destroyed. with no enzymes, there can be little to no digestion of the available nutrients that are present when milk is in its raw form.
here's some examples:
1)lactase is the enzyme that breaks down lactose
2)glactase is the enzyme that breaks down glactose
3)phosphotase is the enzyme that breaks down calcium
4)taurine and tyrosine are amino acids that help to assimilate protein. these are also destroyed in the process of pasteurization.
5)vitamin b12 is almost always completely destroyed
6)a large portion of vitamins D and E are also destroyed as well, along with other important minerals and trace minerals.
OTHER REASONS TO STAY AWAY FROM PROCESSED MILK PRODUCTS
1)when homogenization takes place, the fat globules are shot through a micro-filter at over 4,000 p.s.i. which breaks them down by a factor of over 10! this is a problem because they are so small that they pass through the gut wall and make it into the blood stream, causing an immune system response. this is similar to what happens with products containing gluten.
2)rBGH or Recumbanant Bovine Growth Hormone is used to increase the milking times of cows two-fold. this is a huge problem because a)it actually shows up in the milk you drink, b)it causes pussing in the cows udders which inevitably gets into the milk supply..i don't know about you, but i'm not a big fan of drinking puss. and c)because the cows get so sick from having to produce so much more milk than is natural, the vets have to shoot them up with even more antibiotics than they already use. this of course, also ends up in your milk. right now, hospitals are having some of the worst staph infection rates in history that can be directly related to antibiotic tolerance.
3)when you cook unsaturated fat, it becomes rancid, causing more toxicity in the body. another point to make: because the fats are rancid, they emit a foul odor that the manufacturers mask with scents and chemicals.
4)other factors to take into account with milk...the plastic containers that they are shipped in, the health of the cow that actually produced the milk, the manufacturing conditions, the production of whey,etc.
damnit! i always get off the subject when i'm talking about milk!
anyways, the point that i am trying to make is this, if you are not able to effectively digest milk by itself, then adding more nutrients in absence of digestive enzymes only places more load on your liver and other elimination/detoxification organs.
i totally agree with you when it comes to bodybuilders, degenerative disease patients or competitive athletes. because of the added unnatural demand for nutrtion, there isn't much that they could do with whole foods. but when it comes to the general population, i truly believe that whole foods all of the time is a better strategy for vitality (not just staying "fit"). on the other hand, if the person has got to the point of total nutritional disfunction, then using it as a prophylactic measure for a predetermined amount of time, with the full intention of shifting to a whole foods strategy, could produce some benefits.
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2005/01/30, 12:04 AM
First off I used milk as an example of a calcium transport. Mercola is against milk, true, and in fact I am not a big fan of it. As stated, it was simply and example of taking your vitamins with a SOURCE of the same type in foods.
Please do not suggest I said things, your lines says I suggest taking supplements with milk, and this is in fact not true.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/01/30, 12:52 AM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2005/01/30, 09:17 AM
wow! I had no idea it would be that contraverisal! but thats really interesting, getting both points of view, more information for me. thanks everyone.. so i'll just stick trying to eat right and my multivitamin for now
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2005/01/31, 02:58 PM
sorry bb1fit,
when you'd stated to take your calcium with milk, it just sparked the thoughts about milk in general and why taking suppliments with milk would be counterproductive...i wasn't implying that that's what you were advocating.
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2005/01/31, 04:13 PM
Very easy to take a post out of context. Its ok..:big_smile:
You make very good and informative posts.
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Quoting from nellyboy:
sorry bb1fit,
when you'd stated to take your calcium with milk, it just sparked the thoughts about milk in general and why taking suppliments with milk would be counterproductive...i wasn't implying that that's what you were advocating.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/02/01, 07:57 AM
Dang! my computer gets a virus and it looks like I'm running scared!
To clarify my viewpoint -
I don't think there is anything wrong with responsible use of vitamins, I am just concerned that some people use them as an excuse not to bother with their diet. Clearly this is not the case with yourself, BB1 or many others on this site.
It's a similar situation with cholesterol lowering agents, I've heard many people say "great - I can take this tablet, and continue to eat my favourite foods" rather than take responsibility.
I personally think it preferable for people to take a vitamin if they have identified a need for it, rather than taking everything "just in case", but that's just my opinion.
At the end of the day I think that to overregulate it would be paternalistic, I just like to encourage the average person to think a bit more about what they are putting in their bodies.
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2005/02/01, 08:05 AM
I have a problem with your stance on milk Nelly. First I have been drinking at least a gallon of milk (skim for the last 10 yrs), since I was 3 years old. All I know is that I have yet to break a bone, and or have any other problems that you seem to think will come frommilk. Is this a good thing for all to do maybe not. I know that my wifes family are not big milk drinkers and they all have broken bones multiple times, is this due to milkless diet or genetics? Not sure but it is funny that I have 3 brothers and 3 sisters, we lived in the woods played hard(fell of bikes onto gravel, jumped off 2nd story roofs, fell out of trees 20ft high, played like robinhood with quarter staffs) and not a one of us broke a bone. All I am saying is this...when someone says that I must do something their way casue to do otherwise is bad for me, I tend to do the opposite. I think Mercola is a "chicken little" type of person. Just like those that claimed eating eggs and red meat was bad for us.
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If you can itch your nose after arm day...do another set!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/02/04, 08:13 PM
No offense here, but the story about your family is anecdotal at best...my sister drank milk every day and broke more bones than anyone I've ever known, yet I've never really drank the stuff my entire life and with the exception of two fingers, I've never broke anything in my life(my major bones are incredibly dense...from all of the resistance training I've done). Biochemical Individuality plays the biggest role in these cases here. My sister may have had disfunction when it came to calcium digestion and I may not have, as is the case with you and your family.
All of the information I present on milk and it's deleterious effects on human beings is well documented and has plenty of logic and clinical observation backing it as well. I challenge you to read the works of Weston A. Price and Fancis Pottenger and come away still believing milk is "healthful." Now don't get me wrong, I was exactly the same as everyone else a couple years back when it came to milk. But through the research that I've done, I believe that the media and dairy industry have more to do with the idea that milk is healthful, than does scientific research. They've managed to lead the public away from the FACT that pasteurization and homogenization kill all living organisms...good AND bad. All that's left is sugar water and mostly undigestable proteins and fats (which are rancid as well).
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2005/02/04, 09:23 PM
Not to add fuel to the fire, but... Nelly, what is your take on UHT (Ultra High Temperature) milk?
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2005/02/06, 12:55 PM
are you referring to milk heated to 250degrees and above for 30 seconds? if so, this is even worse than normal paseurization.
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