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2003/08/04, 05:00 PM
frosh, when a person 'starts' lifting weights, this is an increase in activity and will need more calories to sustain it. Yes, it will eventually help shed some of the bodyfat, but since muscle is more dense than fat it takes up less room so you will actually get tighter before really dropping pounds. If you are building muscle, but starving your body, it will not let go of the fat.
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2003/08/03, 10:43 PM
They say building muscle and burning fat simultaneously is improbable. Let's say someone weighs 200 lbs., some of which is flab around the abs. Why is it that if that person consumes the same amount of calories, including a good amount of protein, but works out with weights, the calories that maintain the fat around the abs isn't instead turned into muscle- simultaneously burning the fat and building new muscle?
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2003/08/04, 12:00 AM
I lost you around isn't instead...please clarify your question...
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If hard work and persistence were the keys to success, most people would opt to pick the lock.~Dick
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2003/08/04, 01:14 AM
Although the body can not build lean tissue in a negative caloric state it is important to note that even when dieting we are never in a constant negative state. Upon consumption of nutrients the body goes to work with various metabolic functions including protein synthesis. The problem is when the nutrients from the food are used up the body turns to reserves for the basic metabolic functions. As long as this period of a negative balance is not too long than a limited amount of fat stores will be burned resulting in fat loss & since the period of starvation was brief there will be very little catabolism of lean tissue therefore producing a small gain of lean tissue. The thing to remember is that this process starts over every time we eat. It's a little tricky but through this process it is possible to gain muscle & lose fat in the same time period, it just happens a little bit at a time.
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\"Knowledge & persistence is all one needs to succeed"
---Patrick L.
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2003/08/04, 10:03 AM
You need "X" amount of calories to survive on a daily basis. This is for just normal functions, like keeping your heart beating, breathing,digesting food, making blood cells, maintaining body temp, etc. This is your basic metabolic rate. Not including any activities, etc. Now, add in activities such as daily work, stress levels, and then hard weight lifting. Your calorie needs go up fairly dramatically. And this is still just your maintenance calories. Now, on top of this, the very last thing your body wants to do is build muscle. Your bodies instinct is survival, actually maintenance. So, even on a caloric excess, it is very hard to push the body into building muscle. On a caloric deficit, there is no way the body will build muscle. If you by the very definition are not giving your body what it needs just to maintain its normal functions, do you really think muscle building is going to happen? It will rob these nutrients that would normally have an impact on building muscle for necessary functions to stay alive. This is why it is impossible to do both. In fact, if you don't supply enough protein, your system will cannabalize existing tissue for BCAA's, which it can easily break down for glucose. And the lower you get in bodyfat, the trickier it becomes to save lean tissue, let alone build any.
On a side note to the original post, not sure if this was a mistype or not, but fat cannot be turned into muscle. Two totally different things.
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/08/04, 02:03 PM
What I mean is, fat is maintained through a constant consumption of a certain amount of calories. Muscle is the built and maintained the same way (although exercise is necessary for muscles, whereas it isn't for fat). Let's say someone consumes the same amount of calories everyday. This person has about 200 calories worth of fat around the waist. This person starts lifting weights, but consumes the same amount of calories. Why isn't the 200 calories that maintains the fat around this person's waist, instead used to build muscles, thus simultaneously burning the fat around the waist (due to the 200 calories that were previously used to maintain the fat being used in a different manner- to build muscle)?
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2003/08/04, 04:38 PM
bb1, I have a quick question inregards to your post. I agree that muscle can not be built in a caloric deficit, however aren't times the time frames of +&- calories strongly related to meal frequency and content.Personally I feel that some hypertophy may occur during the day as periods of a positive caloric state can exist within a day that is negative overall.
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\"Knowledge & persistence is all one needs to succeed"
---Patrick L.
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2003/08/04, 05:43 PM
If you mean what I think you're trying to say... the fat around the waist would not become muscle because muscle is made out of protein, not fat.
Maybe I'm way off in what you're trying to ask, but that's how I interpreted it.
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2003/08/04, 07:00 PM
Hmmm...Sounds to me like frosh is looking at this as one big energy equation. (course this could be way off too - let me know)
E = energy/calories
(E_food + E_fat) - (E_basal + E_activities + E_exercise) = E_tocreatemuscle
Of course, I'm not the best one to explain what's incorrect/correct about that statement - basically can fat be used as part of your available energy - are we lugging around "pounds" of calories. (I don't really think it's that easy.) Just trying to help figure out the question...
-Kirby
from frosh -
Why isn't the 200 calories that maintains the fat around this person's waist, instead used to build muscles, thus simultaneously burning the fat around the waist (due to the 200 calories that were previously used to maintain the fat being used in a different manner- to build muscle)?
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2003/08/04, 07:53 PM
What I mean is- if someone works out, why can't fat be shed while muscle is built? You need a deficit in calories to burn fat and an increse to build muscle. What I don't understand is, why can't fat be shed and muscle be built at the same time with the same intake of calories as usual. For example, let's say someone has some fat around their waste consumes 2000 calories in a day. Now, let's take this same person follows a weight lifting routine and eats healthy, eats wnough protein etc. Why can't whatever calories that the body uses to maintain the fat around his waist be used instead to build muscle- which would create the increase in calories for muscle building meanwhile creating the deficit in calories for fat burning. To sum it up, why can't the body use calories it uses as fat to instead build muscle? This has become very hard to articulte, but It's somethinmg I've always wondered about.
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2003/08/04, 09:15 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it:
To lose body fat you have to eat fewer calories than your body burns. But the type of calories your body burns is very important: either aerobic or anaerobic calories.
Aerobic calories burn fat as your body breathes in oxygen. Low-intensity activities up to and including walking are mainly fat burning. This requires a systematically catabolic state (destructive metabolism)...in turn burning the fat.
However, as your body's need for energy becomes greater than your rate of oxygen intake, your body begins burning anaerobic calories. Anaerobic calories burn glucose by converting a starch stored in your muscles known as glycogen. Since this doesn't require oxygen, anaerobic calories are used in very strenuous activities for short periods. The accumulation of lactic acid as a by product of anaerobic activity produces a burning sensation in the muscle. This symptom means you are burning glycogen, not fat. You can't feel fat burning.
To gain muscle you have to eat more calories than your body burns. Here again, the type of calories your body burns is very important. Anaerobic calories burned from strenuous activities like weight lifting produces a hypertrophic effect. With proper periods of rest to allow nutrient replenishment, the muscle gets bigger and stronger. However, you want to be certain you do not go into a catabolic state while building muscle. Otherwise, you are defeating the purpose because the catabolic state will simply destroy the muscle you just worked to build. To prevent the catabolic state, you must eat foods such as simple carbs, which you can not be eating if you are cutting fat.
You can't eat fewer calories than your body burns at the same time that you are eating more calories than your body burns. Also, the TYPE of calories you eat for building muscle and burning fat are different. It is therefore not possible to lose body fat and gain muscle at the same time.
The real solution is to separate your fat-burning from your muscle-building.
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~Jennifer
http://www.gwindalyn.com
If you dont stand for something, you will fall for anything.
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2003/08/04, 09:32 PM
Bingo.....
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/08/05, 03:26 PM
Well said Gwin.
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2003/08/05, 03:43 PM
bhardy i heard the same thing about protein except it said over 1.5/pound was excessive and would start converting to fat.
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2003/08/05, 06:22 PM
Avoiding a catabolic state means keeping a positive nitrogen balance. This is done by having enough protein available at all times. Yes, there is much debate on the amounts of protein needed. Most figures give you a minimum, it is always better to err on the high side of protein. That way at worse case, your body will use some for other needs and you will dispel the rest. Much better than not having enough. 2 gr. per lb. of bodyweight will not hurt you even. Some old adages are hard to dispel. Drink water, you will be fine.
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Quoting from bhardy:
Is avoiding the catabolic state simply a necessary condition or is a sufficient condition for building muscle? In other words, by eating simple carbs and avoiding the catabolic state, is this enough to build muscle? If so, this would argue that an increased protein diet is NOT required for muscle growth. I know this has been argued before, but I keep reading that protein beyond 1g/pound of weight is excessive and not necessary. In fact, its harmful.
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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