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2008/03/20, 08:20 AM
Background info - I have had problem knees my whole life, they hyperextend (genetics) and have always been problematic. Recently they have been getting worse, more painful, which made no sense to me as I was increasing my leg strength and fitness and really working on my flexibility...
So - First appointment with the Physical therapist this morning and I have some interesting things to pass on to all of the women here...
Stop stretching your hamstrings. I know that sounds crazy at first, but bear with me?
We have better flexibility than men to start with because of the hormone relaxin, so we tend to get overly flexible, which causes instability in our hips and knees. Here I had been trying to gain more flexibility because I thought I should be able to bring my leg a lot closer to my chest when lying on my back - apparently this is a long standing fitness misconception and many sports medicine people are now trying to stress the need for a good warm-up but a lot less stretching. Studies done recently have shown that the people with the most hamstring flexibility are the ones who tend to tear a hamstring or wreck their ACL.
Weekend warriors are notorious for tearing their Achilles tendons or pulling hamstrings - previously thought due to tight muscles and inflexibility - but probably they jump right into intense exercise without a proper warm-up. According to the Physical Therapist I saw - a good warm-up will prevent more injuries than constant flexibility work.
Also - because of our hip angle, women tend to recruit more with their quads and hip flexors and thus tend towards weaker glutes and hamstrings. I was a little embarrassed at how easily the PT could push my leg down when I was trying to resist with my glutes. My hamstrings were better but not optimal. To correct these problems we need to do more glute and hamstring exercises that focus on the glutes/hamstrings without letting other muscles take over and cheat.
One area that is usually tight is our hip flexors - so you do want to stretch them out after running, stepping, lifting legs.
If anyone is interested in the exercises he has me doing for glutes/hammies I will definitely try to post descriptions of them for you J
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Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
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2008/03/20, 08:31 AM
Please post the descriptions! Any new info is always apreciated! :)
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Getting there... one kg at a time...
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2008/03/20, 09:46 AM
Okay - the first one is one I am sure most of us has done (and done wrong, lol).
Lying leg lifts - we do these thinking we are targeting our "hips" which really translates to glutes. However - the lying on your side, legs straight - hips stacked and shoulders stacked gives our overachiever quads and hipflexors the chance to take over. To recruit your glutes - roll foward and then extend the top leg behind you a little, toes pointing towards the floor - lift up behind you at about a 45 dgree angle - feel the glutes? Now you know what this exercise is SUPPOSED to be doing, thanks for nothing, Jane Fonda :( work up to 3 sets, 20 reps as he glutes are endurnace type muscles.
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Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
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2008/03/20, 09:57 AM
Next set of two exercises will target glutes - the clamshell.
Lie on your side, knees bent - the degree you need to bend your knees will depend on when your feel like your glutes - not your quads, adductors or hip flexors, are recruiting - I have to be in a fetal position pretty much.
Place your feet togetherand then shift your top leg back so the knee is about 2 inches behind the bottom knee. Now keep the inside edge of your feet together like a hinge sort of and open and close your legs (like a clamshell, duh).
Same rep scheme as above.
Second variation - you do the same exercise but shift the top knee forward about 2 inches.
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2008/03/20, 10:01 AM
Another thing we do incorrectly - at least I was...overachiever :) is lying hamstring/glute raises on the swiss ball. I was bridging up too far, which means my back muscles were taking over. Here is how to do it and recruit glutes and hamstrings:
Lying on your back, place your calves on the swiss ball. Tighten your abs, tilt your pelvis up and bridge just a few inches off the floor - if you feel it in your back you are too high. Now hold the low bridge and alternate lifting one leg (straight legs) while the other has to recruit hamstrings and glutes to stay stable. Alternate legs in a rythmic manner. Aim for 10 reps per side, 3 sets.
One other thing he mentioned - on lying hamstring curls - do one leg at a time and before starting the movement, lift your knee off the pad a few inches, this takes hip flexors out of the equation and lets you recruit hamstrings - you will have to lower your weight but it will be beneficial.
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Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
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2008/03/20, 11:10 AM
Few women achieve laxity, however, it IS most common in the hamstrings. I think the muscles that each person should be focusing on gaining flexibility in should be on a case by case individual basis. Most women will not need more hamstring flexibility (in fact, neither will most men), but it DOES happen.
If your physical therapist told you to stop stretching your hamstrings, then do it. But he may tell then next female to work on her hamstring flexibility.
I do agree that a warm up will be better than stretching prior to exercise almost any day for most sports. A proper warm up will address mobility, activation, and raising the core temperature.
As for the part about weak hamstrings and glutes, this is actually a fairly serious issue. Women are 3 times more likely to tear the ACL, and this is because of the imbalance of strength between the hamstring and quads (strong quads and weak hamstrings).
And the hip flexors aren't just tight in most females, but in most americans, especially those with desk jobs. Sitting causes them to shorten, and when done for long periods they tend to stay that way. What's interesting is that when this happens, it tends to inhibit the glutes through reciprocal inhibition, furthering the problem. This is why you will hear some coaches or therapists recommending static stretching for the hip flexors prior to exercise, while they tell you to avoid stretching other muscles.
Sorry to intrude on your thread amy, but I figured I'd try to give some insight.
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2008/03/20, 11:21 AM
Oh - and the last exercise I forgot...a rotational exercise to work the hip rotator motion of the glutes - get in the same position as the clamshell and place a small ball in between your knees, roll the top knee behind the bottom knee a little - now squeez the ball and lift and lower your foot/lower leg, rotating from the hip - again 20 reps, 3 sets.
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2008/03/20, 11:23 AM
He actually said he would not recommend anyone actively try to incrase their hamstring flexibility much.
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2008/03/20, 12:54 PM
Really? That is in stark contrast with everything we have been taught as far as dealing with posterior pelvic tilt and lumbar spine kyphosis. It is more rare than the alternatives (anterior pelvic tilt and lordosis), but it does happen, and I'd be interested in seeing how he would treat either or both of these without decreasing hamstring stiffness.
I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I will politely disagree.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/20, 01:49 PM
Well, he had me lying on my back, and lifted my leg up to about 90 degrees at the hip and i said "I am not very flexible, huh?" and he said, no, I am too flexible that flexibility and stretching have been wayyyy over emphasized and that he can only lift his leg 'this' high (probably about 1-2 feet off floor) and that he doesn't think you need more flexibility than that.
Anyhow, I am not arguing either, just saying that I have been led to believe through my entire 'fitness' career/journey, whatever you want to call it, that I should be able to pull my shin to my forehead, lol. I hvae always had trouble with the sit and reach test, etc. I am more flexible than most of the men I know, and here I was trying to improve my knee issues by stretching...well, and strengthening, but i was making it worse. And I knwo soooo many women with knee problems that may be very similar...so I guess everyone should get evalutaed on their own basis, but there probably isn't any harm in doing some extra work on those glutes and hamstrings.
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Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
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2008/03/20, 02:10 PM
This is an interesting thread. Scares me a little bit. I AM one of those people who can pull my shin to my head (well about 6 inches from my head anyway) and all those other horrible things I guess we aren't supposed to do. Yikes.
So, what do I do from here? I do yoga daily for meditatation, which is how I managed to pull my shin to my head. Do I stop doing the yoga (I really don't want to stop) or do I just do it half-assed to become less flexible? I'm so confused. :(
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2008/03/20, 02:26 PM
Depends - do you find you have knee issues? He told me no more downward dog, lol.
i guess I would try the exercises and see if you REALLY feel them in your a** - I do and to me that is an indicator that yes, my a** and hammies are weak, lol.
As far as quitting the stretching....The PT says yes, Steve says no.
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Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
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2008/03/20, 02:27 PM
90 degrees can definitely be seen as excessive. Adequate is generally anything over 60-70 degrees in a straight leg raise test. The sit and reach test is a poor and outdated method of determining hamstring flexibility, since most of the flexion occurs in the lower back (especially in males).
Amy, I'd imagine that most of that is probably coming from lumbar flexion. This is the one issue that I have with yoga is that it emphasizes spinal flexibility. The spine is not meant for mobility, it is meant for stability (with the exception of the cervical spine).
Also, one issue with this discussion is that mobility is not the same as flexibility which is also not the same as stiffness. The issue is when the muscles become lax. I'm not going to advise to you to stop the yoga, but if you are concerned, you could see a therapist for a consultation. More than likely you don't need any more hamstring flexibility, but it probably won't affect you negatively.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/20, 02:29 PM
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Quoting from asimmer:
As far as quitting the stretching....The PT says yes, Steve says no.
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Did the therapist actually say that you needed to quit stretching? Or that you didn't need to continue? I'm saying the second, and have a sneeking suspicion your therapist may have meant this as well.
Your PT in training,
Steve
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/20, 02:33 PM
He said no more hamstring stretching period. I am to stertch my hip flexors after exercise but no longer emphasize getting more flexible (as in really pushing and trying to get farther into the stretches). He also said a long muscle is a weak muscle...
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Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
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2008/03/20, 02:55 PM
Well then I see that our disagreement lies at the root of that last statement. I've been taught and have experienced that there IS a correlation between a length, flexibility, and stiffness, but this correlation is not definite or exact.
If your therapist made that recommendation to you, then your hips are probably too lax for your knee health. In this case, flexibility training should be the first thing to go. It's worth noting that laxity is much more common in women than in females, and that the knee joint is the most commonly affected joint (followed by lumbar spine). However, this isn't the case in everyone with flexible hamstrings IMO.
I'm always careful to make recommendations without seeing someone, and always defer to a PT that can see you, but many people do yoga, etc their whole lives without a single issue. However, many do have issues. This should be taken on a case by case basis (which is why I recommend a consultation).
I don't think anyone can say that all women should avoid stretching their hamstrings, and don't think that anyone can, without an analysis, tell someone what muscles they should and shouldn't stretch.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/20, 06:22 PM
Wow, what an eye opener. I DO have problems with my knees, also with my lower back (bulging disc). My remedial mind always figured that I was doing my back and knees good with the yoga, getting really flexible. But, when I actually ask myself "How is being a pretzel helpful for your back and knees" and really don't have a valid answer. How could I?
Like I said, I don't want to quit yoga all together, it is way too much a part of my mental and spiritual health. But, I am going to reconsider some of the poses. I never liked down dog anyway. lol. Or one legged down dog, or needle pose. Maybe I'll just spend an hour alternating between child pose and mountain pose. ha ha.
Thanks for the info!
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