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2004/07/06, 11:45 AM
I have been reading all the posts on Cardio. I have a unique situation, I am tryng to strength and endurance while toning, I want to gain some mass, but not too much. I am 5'3' and about 110. However, I am in the military, and HAVE to do 30-40 minutes of cardio 3-4 times a week. I usually do the cardio during the morning (early) and do the weights 5 days a week, either luch time or evenings. Also, I cannot eat and then run? Am I wasting my time?
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2004/05/08, 02:22 PM
Ok, this is a topic that is constantly brought up, and thought it would be a great sticky. Cardio…is it best before, after, another day, is it right at all? All these are legitimate questions and have to be answered a bit differently for different circumstances.
First off, this is a very general rule to go by, and takes 1st precedence.
Resistance training should always take priority over cardio. Here's why....
The long term gains of increased LBM (lean body mass) and increased secretion of hormones like GH and test far outweigh the calories burnt during a cardio session..
By doing cardio before weights you are simply reducing the amount of glycogen available that could have been used more effectively to fuel your muscles throughout the weight training session...This point cannot be stressed enough.
Here are the top 3 scenarios for doing weights and cardio in order of importance:
#1 - On non-weight training days
#2 - weights in the am and cardio in the pm
#3 - light-cardio after weights
Now, that being said, here are a couple scenarios that are most proposed/asked about by folks, so different protocols need/can be effective. For the person who is lean and wanting to save muscle mass while burning fat, then the above scenarios cannot be altered in any way! You are asking for loss of lean tissue if you do cardio on an empty stomach or any such nonsense. You are already into a catabolic state from the overnight fast, and you are compounding this by doing cardio without fuel. Cortisol will be running rampant, and eating at your lean tissue for fuel. The body is very adept at breaking down amino acids for glucose, and will greedily do so. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. I would propose the best scenario here would be to treat your cardio session as you do your resistance training session. Albeit a different PWO formula (protein/fiber/fats will fit the bill here, no impact on insulin, thus keep any lypololysis induced during your cardio session intact)), but still with the same intensity and purpose. You would not dream of working out on an empty stomach, would you? Never work out on an empty stomach. True, you will burn a buttload of calories, but they will be as much lean tissue as fat. Never sacrifice lean tissue (long term results) for a short term fix.
It is also perfectly fine to do a “warm up” session of cardio before your weight training session if you are mid range, not real lean but not lots of fat stores either. But, here you are on that borderline of getting a lean hard body, and building lean tissue should be your number one priority. But make sure this is no more than a warm up, just to get blood flowing. 5 minutes at most should suffice. I personally prefer to warm up with the exercise I am going to do…i.e…weights.
Now, on the other hand, if you have plenty of fat to spare, it can really become a non issue. I believe this is/should be obvious. You can do your cardio even before if you like, or even on an empty stomach, as in this case total calorie burn is your issue and not saving lean mass, for you probably don’t have enough to save or you have as stated plenty of fat stores to give up. Your body will freely give up fat stores in this case, but still, make your weight session your priority as per the long term benefits.
But, no matter what your physique may be at the time, do not center your workout around cardio. Make certain you incorporate resistance training, as this will in the long run be your best friend in the battle of the bulge. Lean tissue is a fat burner 24 hrs. per day, a cardio session ends when you stop doing it. (A little different with HIIT, but this is another whole subject.):big_smile::big_smile::big_smile::big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/08, 03:57 PM
Thanks! Now I can take this to someone at work I am arguing with about when to cardio!
t
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Tim
"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies, for the hardest victory is over self."
Aristotle
TimDay@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/08, 06:06 PM
welp, you just answered the next five questions i was about post on the board lol
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2004/05/08, 11:48 PM
finaly a cardio breakdown that I understand!!!
Its all clear now... Thanks BB1!
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2004/05/09, 02:39 AM
Great Post BB1! :big_smile:
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2004/05/09, 11:36 PM
BB1, the only question I still have after all that is the whole theory on how your body will learn to "cheat" if you do the same cardio exercises, say for example 20 minutes on the treadmill. I have started to do a routine where I run at a moderate pace, like 6.0, then after a minute, I will run at 8.5 for a minute, etc., etc. I am trying to gain lean mass while burning the excess off the gut. I do focus on weights, and do my cardio after my workout. How likely is it that my body is "cheating"?
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In order to live, you must be willing to die.
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2004/05/10, 01:25 PM
I AM THE LIVING EXAMPLE OF WHAT BB1FIT SAYS;
I am 31-year old very lean person trying to get rid of the fat around belly and obliques.
Couple months ago, I was told to do morning cardio on an empty stomach. The person said, "You will burn pure fat by doing this"
I believed him and did morning cardio(short run for 20 min.) at leats 5 times a week during 3 months.
The result was a disaster. I lost about 9 pounds but the fat on my abdomen didn't go anywhere.
I have been questioning myself about the 9 pounds I lost. Then I discovered this site and asked people. bb1fit and assimer explained me what had happened but it was too late.
So, I burned 9 pounds of pure muscle instead of fat.
Please don't do the mistake I did if you are lean like me.
I stopped doing cardio since then and won't think of it before gaining those muscles I lost.
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2004/05/10, 03:42 PM
Thanks for this post.
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2004/05/10, 05:13 PM
Thank you bb1 this helped me and my boyfriend settle a discussion about cardio. :)
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2004/05/10, 06:29 PM
I'm sorry but I am not sure I understand what you mean by learning to"cheat?"
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Quoting from david_s81:
BB1, the only question I still have after all that is the whole theory on how your body will learn to "cheat" if you do the same cardio exercises, say for example 20 minutes on the treadmill. I have started to do a routine where I run at a moderate pace, like 6.0, then after a minute, I will run at 8.5 for a minute, etc., etc. I am trying to gain lean mass while burning the excess off the gut. I do focus on weights, and do my cardio after my workout. How likely is it that my body is "cheating"?
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/11, 12:53 AM
Hey bb1 just curious what is your weakly workout routine? It would be very interesting to know.
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2004/05/11, 12:26 PM
hey thanks for the post ...ive got a lil ? though...i run 4 miles a day for 20 min on an elliptical trainer...5 days a week.......ive got a stretch resistance band from the bally line and use that in place of weights...will this work and will my work out have to be longer if i use the resistance band? any comments would be greatly appreciated! peace kittle
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2004/05/11, 12:50 PM
You can check out my training log. Probably easier, it has my whole contest training regimine this time in there.
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Quoting from lexballer13:
Hey bb1 just curious what is your weakly workout routine? It would be very interesting to know.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/11, 03:40 PM
i wanted to loose like 10lbs. of fat and tone up. i've been doing cardio (like 20 minutes running) then lifting weights and ending with like 5 minutes of fast cycling and some ab exercises/bodyball stuff.
the gym said this was a good plan for me.
what do y'all think?
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2004/05/11, 09:51 PM
I suggest you read the title post. It is imparative to get this in your head about priorities. You are severly limiting glycogen stores already by the time you start lifting weights. Start doing your weights first and see how your strength goes up, thus your muscle gains. This will far outweigh any cardio calorie burn. As mentioned, lean tissue burns calories 24 hrs. per day, 7 days per week.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/12, 12:01 PM
Great post. I have been following this advice and have found a difference .Thanks BB1fit and everyone else for the helpful info received from this site.
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"If you are going to walk on thin ice you might as well dance"
angelsnow@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/12, 02:47 PM
Not to start an oppinion battle, but BB1fit, check this out
Philia2 posted under HIIT
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Traditionally aerobics last 30 to 60 minutes and are performed at a modest pace in which the participant can still carry on a decent conversation. This is without a doubt one of The most effective ways to burn fat, bar none! However, what if you are in a rush and only have 20 minutes on a certain day to get an effective fat burning workout in?
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if a traditional 30 to 60 minute workout is the best for loosing weight, and HIIT is secondary, why do you sujest mass bulding? It seems to have helped me, hitting the weights, but my wife does the same thing (we hit the gym together) and does not loose an inch, and we start doing this 40 to 60 minute run thing and she drops 5 pounds and an inch or 2 in various areas in one and a half weeks? Any clarificatoin from anyone would be awsome, I just posted in this forum about our workout right before I read this post if you want to see what we are doing and PLEASE feel free to critique/compliment/critisize.
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Sean "TBAR" Johnson -USAF-
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2004/05/12, 02:56 PM
Great stuff bb1 that realy helped me and many other members!!!!
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2004/05/12, 08:14 PM
One of the greatest things about this sport is constant learning and progressing. What was once thought "conventional wisdom" in many areas has long since been proven wrong or at the least not as efficient.
Your wife may very well lose an inch or two or 5 lbs. in a short time with alot of cardio. But, does she have any muscle tone? If you lose that much in 1 1/2 weeks, chances are great that as much as half or more is from lean tissue. If you do your cardio that way, you may be ecstatic with the scale, but you need to look at the big picture...and that is a lean hard muscular body. If that is your goal, then the last thing you want to do is lose muscle. In fact, the scale will go down much faster granted, but your fat to muscle ratio will become even worse in the long run, and when and if(and I am sure you/she will, we all do), start eating anything of consequence again, it can result in a pretty immediate fat storage. The metabolism will slow in response to more muscle loss, thus taking away your fat burning ability 24 hrs. per day. So, your body will react swiftly to a change in diet and learn to store fat in preparation for the next "fasting" time.
Long bouts of cardio can actually "teach" your body to store fat in certain areas. Our bodies are programmed from primitive days for survival. Long duration cardio is akin to being chased by predators, or running through endless jungles, etc. The bodies priority is not to look good at the beach, but survival. The body will learn to anticipate and thus store nutrients(fat)for the next time.
Muscle will burn fat all the time, and as long as you maintain it, and strive for more is yet better, you will always be able to consume more calories and stay leaner than someone who does only or makes cardio a priority. Plus, you will get that lean hard body that you want rather than just become a smaller version of what you are now. :big_smile::dumbbell::big_smile:
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Quoting from Relique:
Not to start an oppinion battle, but BB1fit, check this out
Philia2 posted under HIIT
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/13, 12:17 PM
I understand that, about loosing muscle, that is why we have keept up on our weight training, I have always been a runner, but I am now doing my running before my weights, as per your advice, though I run a bit more than I think you would recomend. Kyrah is trying to increase her endurance, does not want a lot of big muscles, and I don't think she really burnt off any muscle, mostly because aside from the scale change she is seeing her inches go down as well. Is there any "home" way to measure body fat accuratly? aside from the usual tape? That way we can be sure that things are working the way we want.
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Sean "TBAR" Johnson -USAF-
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2004/05/13, 12:23 PM
Body fat calipers are very cheap. Mine were $20. The more expensive electronic ones save you from doing some math but thats about it. You can look for them online or at your local fitness store.
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2004/05/13, 01:07 PM
I think you have my advice backwards, do the resistance training first.
Charlie gave you good advice. Another less reliable way with no instruments would be to do a bicep to waist ratio. For instance if you waist is 30, and bicep 15, that is a 2:1 ratio. This ratio must not go up, it should get lower.
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Quoting from relique:
I understand that, about loosing muscle, that is why we have keept up on our weight training, I have always been a runner, but I am now doing my running before my weights, as per your advice, though I run a bit more than I think you would recomend. Kyrah is trying to increase her endurance, does not want a lot of big muscles, and I don't think she really burnt off any muscle, mostly because aside from the scale change she is seeing her inches go down as well. Is there any "home" way to measure body fat accuratly? aside from the usual tape? That way we can be sure that things are working the way we want.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/13, 03:05 PM
I got the advice to do Cardio before weights here... I am not sure what post it was, and it was months ago, and here was the logic, sounded good to me. When your doing Cardio you run the chance of buring muscle. If you want to do cardio do it before you do your weights, it will serve 2 purposes; Prevent Muscle loss sincce you are finishing by using your muscles, Your Met. will stay higher after a good Weight lifting session, after cardio your body slows down fairly quckly. By doing the Cardio first, your heartrate is up before you start the weights and will help you keep it up during, and then you will burn fat longer afterwards... plz, correct me where I am wrong, this is just how I understood from previous info here.
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Sean "TBAR" Johnson -USAF-
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2004/05/13, 09:31 PM
Ok, stand corrected. That is wrong advice. If you look enough for any type program/advice, whether on training or supplements, if you look long enough and ask enough people you can find someone to tell you what you WANT to hear. Feel free to do as you see fit.
There is still tons of people out there with degrees from top schools that swear we do not need more protein, or that you can only digest 20 gr. at a time, etc.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/14, 12:46 PM
Ron, you can't be much more diplomatic than that.
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Foolish consistancies are the hobgoblins of small minds.
Charlie
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2004/05/17, 04:25 AM
bb1fit does that mean i can gain muscle and still lose fat, if i was to eat like more than usual (balanced diet) but include like sprints and stuff in a workout??? as well..? and cut cardio completly ( cept sprints and warmups )? also question i believe every word u say but also dont u need cardio for your heart? better your heart the more food can pump to your body and muscles? :surprised: *all sounds interesting* this site starting to be useful not like other ones i seen lol :laugh:
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2004/05/17, 04:29 AM
btw ( by the way ) how do you check someones logbook :surprised::)
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2004/05/17, 10:39 AM
Of course cardio is needed for cardiovascular support. The heart is your strongest muscle!! If you read my post, I am just advocating the best TIMES to do it!
And yes, you will be able to eat more food.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/17, 04:19 PM
ok, so now correct me please, I was not asking to declare me corrected, I was looking for some mroe info. I used to do cardio after my weights, and changed it after reading here that you should do cardio before weights. (I really do not like lifting while tird) I am not very oppinionated on Cardio vs Weightlifting or both together, I am just trying to understand all this stuff better. Seems that there are a lot of people out there with uber educations and lots of success that say WAY too many differant things... I am begining to think that rather than take any single persons advice I need to try a ton of stuff, eating, workouts, and find what works best for me and my wife. Maby then I can come out with my new "bowflex" machine and make a million on infomercials lol. (last part there was just a joke)
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Sean "TBAR" Johnson -USAF-
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2004/05/17, 04:47 PM
Relique, It surely would help if you found the post saying to do cardio before lifting. I have never seen one like that. I am not doubting it exists. There certainly are not many posts that advocate cardio before lifting. Most posts on the subject suggest doing cardio on your days off from lifting or separating the two by 6 or 8 hours. There isn't much argument that muscle is the best fat burner there is. The best way to build muscle is lifting.
You are absolutly right that you and your wife should try different methods and frequently change up your routines. Your bodies will tell you whats working. Good luck
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Foolish consistancies are the hobgoblins of small minds.
Charlie
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2004/05/18, 04:15 AM
nice :laugh: bb1fit how do i check out your logbook ? :D
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2004/05/18, 05:17 AM
Relique, I think it is really good you are trying to understand things better. It is very difficult to get accurate information on exercise, and there is a lot of nonsense written in a lot of places, often in quasi-scientific language, which on the surface of things, seems to make sense.
This site is by far the most accurate that I've found although clearly anyone can post on it so I wouldn't take a single post as gospel, better to get an idea of the consensus of opinion.
I would also say that it is obvious from their pictures that people like bb1 and asimmer know what they're talking about - you don't get physiques like that by accident.
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2004/05/18, 10:12 AM
Timstarr, nice buns. At the top of the page click on fitness plans. Then you will see a clickable for personal journal. Click it. The journals are there.
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Foolish consistancies are the hobgoblins of small minds.
Charlie
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2004/05/18, 05:58 PM
I took a look today, and could not find anything, I hate it when I quote something I can't find, I appologize. Making sure I was still on track I just read BB1's main post again and noticed a posible missundestanding on my part, or perhaps I was not clear enough:
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Quoting from bb1fit:
Now, on the other hand, if you have plenty of fat to spare, it can really become a non issue. I believe this is/should be obvious. You can do your cardio even before if you like, or even on an empty stomach, as in this case total calorie burn is your issue and not saving lean mass, for you probably don’t have enough to save or you have as stated plenty of fat stores to give up. Your body will freely give up fat stores in this case, but still, make your weight session your priority as per the long term benefits.
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Does this apply to me? I am about 25lbs overweight, (and every *edit* pound is around my *edit* waist) 6'3" at 225? I figure at 200lbs I am prity close to idea with a decent ammount of mass. I also have to keep a decent running pace due to Military standards (1.5 mile at 11 minutes) Reading and understanding a bit better what BB1fit says I think I am actualy beating a dead horse, that is prity close to what I did before. (warmup, 1hr of weights, then 2 mile or 3 mile run) For some reason, someone that sounded credible said to keep my mass (I really wish I could have found that post) I need to do the cardio before or I would burn up any mass I was trying to create during my run. So is the general consensus for me to go back to my old workout? I kind-a assume so I will change back today, thanks for the info everyone!
:dumbbell::angry::dumbbell:
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Sean "TBAR" Johnson -USAF-
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2004/05/19, 02:08 AM
Hey BBfit, I read on here that cardio after lifting was a bad idea because your body is allready in a state of stress and that is also detramental to your gains. Also i have been running in the morning only like a mile on an emtpy stomach and i have heard that you could run this far on your night befores glycogen, is there any truth to this. then i lift later in the day
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2004/05/19, 09:36 AM
Cardio after lifting is a bad idea, as you notice it is last on the list. The ideal scenario is to do your weights, and get your PWO shake in you immediately to shut off the cortisol and start annabolism. This is key to remember...Protein synthesis will simply NOT occur if there is an insufficient or delayed supply of energy and amino acids to offset post-workout catabolism!! Keep this in mind always!
Then do your cardio on an off day, and then separated by 6-8 hours, all this of course if muscle gain/tone is your goal. If you just simply want to lose weight to see the scale go down, then do cardio till your heart is content with disregard for anything else. But, you will pay in the long run. How many people have you seen who do alot of cardio have a lean muscular body? They may look thin, but they are normally soft to the touch and a skinny flabby. Do not jeapordize a long term goal for a short term fix.
"are you listening Relique?"
If you must do weights and cardio at the same session, then it is still much preferrable to do your weights first for the reasons I have reiterated above.
And jcrews, could you be a bit more specific on your last part of your post? I really do not understand what you mean by the way you have it worded.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/19, 11:28 AM
OK, lol, Ill give that a shot then, do the three day cycle, weights one day, run on the second, then rest on the third. Sounds like Jcrews has herd the same stuff I did before, like I said, I am open to new ideas, will give the running one day and weights another a shot, see how that works on a 3 day cycle. And I love my Protien shake :) found a good tasting one.
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Sean "TBAR" Johnson -USAF-
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2004/05/20, 03:28 AM
bb1, or indeed anyone else, I would be interested to know your thoughts on how much muscle is at risk if you keep up carb intake during longer duration cardio?
I kind of posted my theory in "is cycling the best cardio", but that post degenerated a bit!
To reiterate - If you're drinking sports drink and keeping your blood glucose level up, does this mean that your body has no need to breakdown muscle for energy, thus meaning that cardio can be sustained for longer?
(I'm not suggesting people start doing 4 hour cardio spells to burn fat, it's just that I cycle for enjoyment and I don't know if I'm preventing muscle gains or not.)
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2004/05/20, 09:46 AM
Endurance atheletes are doing exhaustive oxidative and glycotic work, which definitely depletes muscle glycogen stores, this in turn alerts the liver to kick in its glucose output(remember me posting many times about fructose topping off liver glycogen for later use and why this isn't welcom immediately post workout?) The liver is actually the only organ in the body that can supply glucose to our blood WHILE training. So, in this case then it would make perfect sense to sip on a glucose based drink during long durations of cardio, such as marathon runners, etc. So, it depends on your goal.:big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/20, 12:44 PM
Thanks, more gatorade for me I think :)
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2004/05/21, 06:59 PM
If Im lean and just want to lose about 5% body fat (10 pounds, i guess) without losing whatever muscle I have, what should I do? I was accustomed to doing the HIIT first thing in the morning and then eating for the first time about 50 minutes later (this was advice that I read). However, your approach discredits that. So, wat if I did it but drank a scoop of whey protein first. Would that suffice enough to prevent muscle loss?
Also, I've read that you can't gain muscle weight and lose fat simultaneously. However, does that pertain to abs as well? If I'm burning fat, and doing ab work, will I simultaneously burn the fat and gain ab mucles?
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2004/05/21, 07:11 PM
Also, is there a post that lists the foods that are off limits during a cutting phase?
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2004/05/25, 02:15 PM
So what would I do?
ie:
I'm 135 - 140 lbs 6' tall. weight usually 135. lean, fast metabolism. ectomorph.
And I need to warm up before I workout as everyone should.
Should I:
A) Jog
B) Bike
C) Warm up with light weights
D) Stretch
or somthing else?
Thanks I think this might eliminate some questions because of the fact that there are only a few different types of bodies (body compositions) combinations and a lot of people here have those. therefore I think that in the back of the head some people may have the same question.
Thank you
Vitaliy:dumbbell:
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2004/05/25, 04:55 PM
bb1fit~
What is your take on the max-ot cardio.. basically everyday but at least 8 hours between weightlifting and cardio and cardio is 16 Min of H.I.T. I have been doing it since feb. and it has worked wonders without hindering my weight training.
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2004/05/25, 06:30 PM
That is a good scenario. My second suggestion is as you notice, weights in the morning, cardio in the pm. 6-8 hr. separation time at least. And doing HIIT that way is ideal. 16-20 min. is the longest I ever go for.
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Quoting from willywig:
bb1fit~
What is your take on the max-ot cardio.. basically everyday but at least 8 hours between weightlifting and cardio and cardio is 16 Min of H.I.T. I have been doing it since feb. and it has worked wonders without hindering my weight training.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/26, 03:12 PM
I found a post that I had read previously suggesting to do cardio in the am before breakfast.
http://www.freetrainers.com/FT/jsp/Message.jsp?f_ix=3&t_ix=229
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2004/05/26, 04:59 PM
Paper never refused ink. Read this entire post.
Only you can decide what to believe, but i trhink bbfit is pretty credible.
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/05/26, 05:29 PM
That link didn't work for me, but i made a wild guess and tried the sticky 'for those who want to loose fat' and it was that number. If you continue and read the entire post there is a debate about the belief that you should do cardio first thing in the morning before breakfast. Read the entire post and take everything with a grain of salt.
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/05/28, 08:16 AM
I agree with both of you. I was only trying to help out the previous poster in finding a thread that negated bb1. From lurking here, it definitely seems that his credibility is not a question.
Besides, working out in the evening works better for me anyway. Cardio one night, pilates the next.
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Cardio questions?
